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The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

nature.com

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Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#111

Post by Balgair »

jdavis703 wrote: post #2

The article writes that in 2016 the “National Institutes of Health (NIH) made it a requirement for grant applicants to justify their choice of the sex of animals used in experiments.” I can only imagine that some people took this as yet another example of political correctness creeping in to the public sphere. Hopefully the results from this study helps to bolster more scientific studies using diverse populations (in…

For the interested:

The NIH's change in requirements to include does/dams largely follows from the finding out of McGill [0] that showed male rats will change their pain tolerances in response to testosterone smells emitted by male researchers. That particular finding invalidated a LOT of pain research from a few decades past. There had been calls for a long time to include female rats in research, but the rodent estrus cycle is very difficult to deal with and control for, hence female absence from most rat studies. Bucks are very pheremonal and will also greatly change behavior when does are around, another confound to experiments. The McGill work was the straw that broke the camel's back and finally forced the change from the NIH.

[0]https://www.mcgill.ca/newsroom/channels/news/scent-man-23549...

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#112

Post by Raphmedia »

kantos2 wrote: post #105

Sorry, but no https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/07/050705004113.h...

Science is rarely "yes" and "no". It's much more complicated than that.

This link seem to say that women experience more pain over a lifetime, not necessary when testing for a large number of different triggers and comparing them to men.

"Research is telling us that women experience a greater number of pain episodes across their lifespan than men, in more bodily areas and with greater frequency."

They also only tested one trigger that is way more related to temperature sensitivity than actual pain tolerance.

"To carry out this research, scientists asked volunteers to place their non-dominant arm in a warm water bath (37 degrees centigrade) for two minutes before transferring the hand into an ice water bath maintained at a temperature of 1 - 2 degrees centigrade."

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#113

Post by GuB-42 »

jdavis703 wrote: post #2

The article writes that in 2016 the “National Institutes of Health (NIH) made it a requirement for grant applicants to justify their choice of the sex of animals used in experiments.” I can only imagine that some people took this as yet another example of political correctness creeping in to the public sphere. Hopefully the results from this study helps to bolster more scientific studies using diverse populations (in…

Much to my dismay, it looks like it is indeed motivated by political correctness: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4360141/

But who cares if it leads to better research.

The issue I have with it is that we are talking about animal studies. And asking scientists to justify the use of male vs female mice sound like asking physicists to justify the choice between spherical and cubic cows. A point of using mice is that experiments can be done easily and cheaply before moving on to more detailed research using more varied, more expensive animals, ending up with humans.

Forcing scientists to compare male and female mice can lead to better research... on mice. But does it result in better research on humans is debatable (and debated in the paper I linked). After a quick read, what I find unfortunate is that the conclusion is supported more by political arguments than with hard data.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#114

Post by Raphmedia »

torpilla wrote: post #86

My wife also seems to handle physical pain quite well, since she knows it's coming from a place of love, but she doesn't do as well with temperature, especially spending the night outside, in the yard. Especially in the winter.

If this is a joke, this is incredibly distasteful. If this isn't, please seek help. There is no such thing as hitting your wife "from a place of love". If this is a boast on your consensual sex life, then this is merely pathetic.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#115

Post by BurningFrog »

wahern wrote: post #49
BurningFrog wrote: post #11

The obvious theory for different pain sensitivity between men and women is that women need to handle childbirth. Since that is unique to our species, animal testing probably won't be helpful there.

I would think it's much more indirect than that. We know women have much more robust immune systems than men do, presumably partly because of the rigors of pregnancy, dangers of child birth, and demands of child rearing. And this is true across species. What was immediately fascinating to me about this article was the relationship between the immune system and pain sensitivity. Women suffer from autoimmune disorders…

You only need minor differences in women's pain sensitivity resulting in minor changes of rates of second children, to have real evolutionary impact.

The interesting part is why this wouldn't result in changes for both men and women. I think the answer is that pain sensitivity is useful, so the evolutionary pressure for men kept it up.

I should say that this is my private speculation. I'm not aware of any established science supporting this, though it might exist.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#116

Post by nabnob »

foldr wrote: post #97
insickness wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> another example of political correctness It's also the opposite. There's a strain of far left ideology that claims men and women are mentally identical, despite much scientific evidence to the contrary. If they were identical, studies on both genders would be unnecessary.

>There's a strain of far left ideology that claims men and women are mentally identical I've never seen anyone actually claim this. Often, people on the right want people on the left to be claiming this because it would be easy to refute. But in fact what people on the left are usually doing is expressing skepticism that various aspects of the status quo (such as the distribution of genders in various professions) ar…

I get into debates about this topic all the time. There are definitely people on the left who claim that sex isn't binary, and that the existence of intersex people somehow disproves the idea of male/female sexes.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#117

Post by foldr »

nabnob wrote: post #116
foldr wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's a strain of far left ideology that claims men and women are mentally identical I've never seen anyone actually claim this. Often, people on the right want people on the left to be claiming this because it would be easy to refute. But in fact what people on the left are usually doing is expressing skepticism that various aspects of the status quo (such as the distribution of genders in various professions) ar…

I get into debates about this topic all the time. There are definitely people on the left who claim that sex isn't binary, and that the existence of intersex people somehow disproves the idea of male/female sexes.

That seems like a separate topic. The question at issue is whether people who can be clearly classified as "men" or "women" according to general consensus show some cognitive differences on average. I have not seen anyone deny this.

In a similar way, one might argue that "races" don't really have any objective existence, and yet still acknowledge that e.g. African-Americans are less likely to go to college than Asian Americans. Such stats aren't invalidated by the lack of any objective biological definition of "race", or by the existence of some people with mixed African/Asian heritage, etc. etc.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#118

Post by auiya »

jgibson wrote: post #30
pen2l wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So uhm, I’m a male reporting in with my anecdata. I am just like your girlfriend. Can’t tolerate extreme temperatures (especially cold), but have a fairly high tolerance for physical pain compared to what’s normal I think. And I am INFAMOUS for needing sunglasses. Whenever I’m visiting my folks, they know it’s the thing I’ll complain about if I’ll be in the sun and my mom will usually have bought sunglasses just for…

Eye colour has a lot to do with how much light your retinas let in, iirc. Would this explain your sensitivity?

I've heard this as well. I have blue eyes and extreme sensitivity to light, much moreso than my partner w/ brown eyes. I can't be outside without sunglasses for instance, and I've noticed polarized lens's are far more effective at reducing my pain point than normal tinted glasses. I also can't just flick on the lights in the morning when I wake up, I have to gradually introduce my eyes to light.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#119

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

chroma wrote: post #81
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Humanity slaughters billions of animals each year just because they're tasty. It's very likely that people find meat tasty because it's nutritious, just as we find sugar and plant fats tasty. Your comment makes it sound as if eating meat is some kind of indulgence, like eating sweets. Meat is a rich source of protein and energy. We don't need any more justification than that to want to eat other animals. There are…

> Meat is a rich source of protein and energy. We don't need any more justification than that to want to eat other animals. Jonathan Swift argued the same in A Modest Proposal [1]: > I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make…

Swift's text was satire.

Also: cannibalism, rape, murder etc are illegal in pretty much every territory. What is your point?

Also also: a chicken thrown to the shredder is not eaten, yes.

Can you please explain what you mean without colorful metaphors and attempts at humour? I enjoy those as the next person but they don't help me understand what you mean. If I make an assumption about what you mean and I reply to the assumption in the same way, with metaphors and similes, and you make an assumptiona bout what that meant and reply accordingly, we'll lose the plot very, very quickly.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#120

Post by Faark »

nabnob wrote: post #116
foldr wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's a strain of far left ideology that claims men and women are mentally identical I've never seen anyone actually claim this. Often, people on the right want people on the left to be claiming this because it would be easy to refute. But in fact what people on the left are usually doing is expressing skepticism that various aspects of the status quo (such as the distribution of genders in various professions) ar…

I get into debates about this topic all the time. There are definitely people on the left who claim that sex isn't binary, and that the existence of intersex people somehow disproves the idea of male/female sexes.

You seem to mix up binary with bimodal. Sex is indeed not binary, as illustrated by the many cases of "it's complicated". You can try to define a strong line, but the resulting rule will be quite arbitrary and mostly be based on your feelings. Accepting the distribution to be bimodal obviously still allows most of us to easily be categorized as either male or female. Same for gender roles, by the way, though with a bigger focus on behavior than biology.
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