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The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

nature.com

81–90 of 146 posts

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#81
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it, but only because from a utilitarian standpoint, using animals for research purposes is not even a drop in the bucket. Humanity slaughters billions of animals each year just because they're tasty. At least the research animals have some benefit beyond a single person's satiation. I do wonder how long it will be before people start vandalizing statues of historical figures because they ate meat.

>> Humanity slaughters billions of animals each year just because they're tasty. It's very likely that people find meat tasty because it's nutritious, just as we find sugar and plant fats tasty. Your comment makes it sound as if eating meat is some kind of indulgence, like eating sweets. Meat is a rich source of protein and energy. We don't need any more justification than that to want to eat other animals. There are…

> Meat is a rich source of protein and energy. We don't need any more justification than that to want to eat other animals.

Jonathan Swift argued the same in A Modest Proposal[1]:

> I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee or a ragout.

Swift also argued that eating the babies of the poor also helps prevent famine and breaks the cycle of poverty. Clearly this has more advantages than eating chickens or cows!

> At the end of the day- many animals eat other animals' meat. Why is it any different for humans to do the same?

Animals also rape each other, kill each other over mates and territory, and occasionally commit cannibalism. By your logic, why shouldn’t humans do the same?

> Even a chicken is large enough to feed two people. Larger animals can feed a family for several days.

Depends on the chicken. Almost all male chicks are killed within 3 days of hatching, usually by tossing them into a shredder.[2] I doubt one of them is very filling.

1. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of doubt that emergent properties can be modeled.

Surely if you model the non-emergent properties well enough the emergent properties will arise anyway

That's the problem, you can't know if you missed any in a simulated model.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since that is unique to our species, Much of the animal kingdom has the same issue of painful childbirth. What you mean by "handle", I can only guess. Perhaps something about recovery and a desire repeat.

> Much of the animal kingdom has the same issue of painful childbirth Do they? As far as I was aware, humans have a uniquely awkward childbirth due to our cranial size.

Google "hyena birth"... I do not recommend doing this at work, or during lunch.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#84

The article writes that in 2016 the “National Institutes of Health (NIH) made it a requirement for grant applicants to justify their choice of the sex of animals used in experiments.” I can only imagine that some people took this as yet another example of political correctness creeping in to the public sphere. Hopefully the results from this study helps to bolster more scientific studies using diverse populations (in…

> another example of political correctness

It's also the opposite. There's a strain of far left ideology that claims men and women are mentally identical, despite much scientific evidence to the contrary. If they were identical, studies on both genders would be unnecessary.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#85
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Much of the animal kingdom has the same issue of painful childbirth Do they? As far as I was aware, humans have a uniquely awkward childbirth due to our cranial size.

Not only that. No other animal menstruates quite like humans do either; there's been an arms race between the placenta and the womb, and rather than a safe place to protect the fetus, the womb is more of a safe place to isolate the fetus and manage its access to the mother's resources while keeping the mother safe. Human pregnancy is messed up beyond the obvious issue of squeezing our large brain through out narrow r…

Yeah, a baby is literally a parasite. Fortunately it's quite easy for women to avoid accidental pregnancy these days.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#87
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I seriously believe it. It really should be necessary for people who don't believe it to explain themselves. That is rejecting the null hypothesis, so to speak.

You're not arguing that the line should be drawn somewhere else. You're arguing that there is no line. So let's take it all the way. What makes the life of a lab mouse more valuable than the life of a single cell of yeast? I think answers about awareness and capability just rationalize the fact that intuitively some life forms are more sympathetic to us than others. We will draw the line at some level of sympathy, bu…

And that's basically the same answer you'd get about slavery from a slave owner. I don't think it is a good argument.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#88
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question was about a sci-fi hypothetical scenario, not the current state of things. However the hypocrisy of the current state of things is staggering to me. Using words like 'ethical' and 'unethical' makes it worse. Nothing makes a human being's life more important than the life of a lab mouse. To avoid a result "as good as murder" in humans, we are actually murdering other animals.

> Nothing makes a human being's life more important than the life of a lab mouse. Is this hyperbole, or do you seriously believe this?

From an objective view point, it is completely and obviously true. There is no intrinsic quality of humanity that makes our lives more valuable than that of any other organism, or indeed, anything else in the universe.

Which isn't to say that we necessarily should be interacting with the rest of the universe as though everything is human, because... well honestly I'm not sure I can express the concept in a way that it is even remotely likely to be understood, but I think it would suffice to say that we should not fool ourselves into thinking that we are somehow special and preferred by the universe. We may prefer ourselves simply because we are us, but at the same time our concept of self is incredibly expandable. Even within those arguing against parent there are people willing to include non-human species among that definition because they display similar cognitive qualities, and there are humans who would exclude other humans for various reasons. The line is arbitrary and subjective to the point that I make the following assertion: it is entirely illusory, an imposition of our mind's desire to categorize.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#89
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that. No other animal menstruates quite like humans do either; there's been an arms race between the placenta and the womb, and rather than a safe place to protect the fetus, the womb is more of a safe place to isolate the fetus and manage its access to the mother's resources while keeping the mother safe. Human pregnancy is messed up beyond the obvious issue of squeezing our large brain through out narrow r…

Yeah, a baby is literally a parasite. Fortunately it's quite easy for women to avoid accidental pregnancy these days.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal In light of current energy crisis and other considerations, I implore you to consider the following proposal.

Re: The sexes don’t feel pain the same way

#90
Obviously these things are highly individual, but my personal experience totally aligns with this article. I’m a transgender woman and when I started taking estrogen my pain tolerance increased noticeably over the course of about a month. Stubbing my toe just doesn’t bother me like it used to
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