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The one-salary experiment, ten years in

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Re: The one-salary experiment, ten years in

#221

Post by fsloth »

virgilp wrote: post #152
user5994461 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a myth spread out by recruiters. They do not get paid when the developer doesn't change job. They'll say anything to get you to leave. Truth is, counter offers happen and work out. When it's about compensation, not toxic workplace/coworker, or relocating elsewhere to live with your wife/children.

A former manager - and friend - of mine told me that, when switching jobs, former employer made a handsome counter-offer, I think basically doubling his compensation; it was more than he got at the new gig. His reaction? "Now I also feel insulted. So that's how much I was worth to you, but you waited for me to leave before adjusting my pay?" It strikes me as a reasonable attitude, and one that I've adopted too. I don…

Um, I don't think it's a good idea to take it that personally.

As a talented professional, you are constantly in the market.

What sets the market price? Market.

Your compensation is not about how much revenue you make to your employer, but what is the market price for the resource (you) and is the employer ready to pay the market price.

When you get an offer that is way above your current rate, your explicit market price suddenly increases. Before you get the concrete offer your market price is likely lower.

Big companies have salary policies that are not necessarily about what your boss would like to pay you. When you get an offer to leave your boss gets more leverage as well to offer you more comp.

"I know what our salary policy is, but this individual contributor would be really hard to replace and his cost just doubled. It's really expensive to replace him. Can I make a counteroffer that makes him/her stay?"

Re: The one-salary experiment, ten years in

#222

Post by badpun »

zdragnar wrote: post #91
issa wrote: post #84

I've always found it strange that companies don't give raises to current employees. A team I am on just lost a good engineer to another company offering him a $30k+ raise. He would have stayed if our company had even given him half of that. Instead, they let him go, and how will have to hire someone else, probably at that higher salary. So weird, and seems to happen a lot.

I've heard from multiple managers that offering someone money to stay typically buys another 9 months or so of their employment. They'll soon find other reasons to be looking for a job. There are, of course, exceptions; it's just a general rule.

Hah, worked exactly like that in my case (I left anyway exactly 9 months after a counteroffer raise).

Re: The one-salary experiment, ten years in

#223

Post by fsloth »

wting wrote: post #94
zdragnar wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard from multiple managers that offering someone money to stay typically buys another 9 months or so of their employment. They'll soon find other reasons to be looking for a job. There are, of course, exceptions; it's just a general rule.

I believe grandparent was referring to proactive raises. Reactive counter offer raises typically don't work because the employee's mind has been made up to leave. Compensation is usually only part of why someone decided to leave.

"Compensation is usually only part of why someone decided to leave."

Bullshit. When you have a family to feed and loans to pay compensation absolutely is a critical part of why someone might decide to leave.

Any employer who tries to shame employees into accepting lower compensation than what the market offers by appealing into loyalty or misplaced honor are absolutely just trying to screw the employee over.

Best employers are nice and human, but also totally understand how the market works and are ready to play in it using fair negotiation tactics that involve only financial figures and no confidence tricks.

Re: The one-salary experiment, ten years in

#224

Post by frobozz »

lawn wrote: post #219

What happens when a skilled and very hard worker gets the same raise as someone who's not as skilled and not working very hard? For example if the skilled one solves the hard problems the less skilled one cannot solve. And if the lazy one spends a bunch of time on facebook. It isn't about the salary in absolute terms. It's about recognition and to be appreciated for the good work he's doing. But instead he gets the l…

This is something I have thought about before.

If the raise is "good" (well above inflation, at least as good as market rate), then it doesn't matter. Other motivations (pursuit of mastery, desire to do a good job etc.) have a more powerful effect than competition.

The problem comes when the raise is "bad" (at or below inflation, below market rate). At that point, the feeling of being undervalued kicks in and can have a more powerful effect than other motivators.

It is the difference between feeling like you are being treated like the best employee vs. feeling like you are being treated like the worst employee.

Re: The one-salary experiment, ten years in

#225

Post by frobozz »

icelancer wrote: post #135
pixl97 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, when you leave a company remember to send a company wide email to your old coworkers telling them how much more you make now : )

Searching any listserv or salary database will get you that information.

It would get you averages or the salaries of people whose marketability you don't know.

It doesn't get you "Hey! That bozo now earns £20K more than me"

Re: The one-salary experiment, ten years in

#226

Post by ownagefool »

notabot wrote: post #180
virgilp wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A former manager - and friend - of mine told me that, when switching jobs, former employer made a handsome counter-offer, I think basically doubling his compensation; it was more than he got at the new gig. His reaction? "Now I also feel insulted. So that's how much I was worth to you, but you waited for me to leave before adjusting my pay?" It strikes me as a reasonable attitude, and one that I've adopted too. I don…

This comment articulated my thought so well. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who would react like that. :-) The industry is playing a silly game.

Cool, but then you end up with less money overall.

The smart move is to accept the counter, then keep looking for something better with the negotiating position that you're paid $salary x 2. Better yet, push for a title to go with the salary that'll help you land an even better job.

This is assuming all else is equal. If you're moving on for better future propsects, because the company culture is stressing you out, or because of a lack of trust, it might be better moving on anyways.

But there's no guarantee the new lot is going to treat you any better either, and companies do what's best for them, so there's nothing wrong with playing the same games yourself.

Re: The one-salary experiment, ten years in

#227

Post by rubidium »

k__ wrote: post #209
icelancer wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Negotiating raises via counteroffers is a very dangerous practice. The employee will tell everyone how they got their raise (and it will get out), and suddenly you have a much larger problem on your hands rather than a single engineer leaving. Set up a fair, proactive, and objective way to obtain more money, and never deviate.

I know this problem well, but what can one employee do? If one company tries to poach me, should I simply keep it to myself that there is someone who is willing to pay me much more?

I use it as leverage at performance review time. Non-emotional, but “hey I like working here and contributing to the goals of company x, but I want you to know I’ve received an offer for $z. I believe that’s a fair evaluation of my market rate. I’d like to see a commitment from (current employer) that matches that in the near future. Do you think that is workable?”

You clearly need to be someone your manager is willing to fight HR in order for this to work. But it’s been effective for me.

Re: The one-salary experiment, ten years in

#228

Post by febeling »

lawn wrote: post #219

What happens when a skilled and very hard worker gets the same raise as someone who's not as skilled and not working very hard? For example if the skilled one solves the hard problems the less skilled one cannot solve. And if the lazy one spends a bunch of time on facebook. It isn't about the salary in absolute terms. It's about recognition and to be appreciated for the good work he's doing. But instead he gets the l…

It's interesting that apparently this effect you describe doesn't seem to apply just as simply as we'd expect, however convincing it sounds.

At least according to the book "Drive" by Daniel Pink (2011), for any cognitively demanding work, financial incentives have a counter-productive effect. People literally become less smart by dangling the money carrot in front of them.

I guess that wouldn't imply that people being just plain lazy are accepted, but I feel that's a different discussion.

The book concludes with recommending that cognitively demanding work should be rewarded loosely adequately, and then get the whole topic out of sight, in favor focus on the interesting work.

Re: The one-salary experiment, ten years in

#229

Post by aristophenes »

I don’t think this can work on a larger scale. If you pay a doctor the same as you pay a medical technician, who is going to go through 4 years of med school? Some sure, for the love of it, and those will be the best. But we already get those. It seems to me that this company can exist, because everyone else has created the market that creates more developers. If everyone else did the same, everyone would already be scrambling for just as many devs out of a much smaller pool.

Re: The one-salary experiment, ten years in

#230

Post by inertiatic »

bmdavi3 wrote: post #68
steven2012 wrote: post #64

Right now I'm struggling with whether or not to leave. I'm currently at a well-known company, and I'm uncharacteristically happy because my WLB is the best it's been in my career. However, I'm getting a bit bored and I also know I could make at least $50,000 a year more if I leave. Hell, even the new engineers joining my company at the same level are making more than I am. But the culture and pay at my company is jus…

What if you went to your manager, or whoever you feel is the right person, asked if you could speak one on one, and said... "I really love working at this company. The work is interesting, I love the people, the culture, . But I also know I could be making X if I went elsewhere. I love the work I'm doing, and I want to keep doing it here, but I also don't want to be leaving money on the table. What can we do?" This p…

I did this a couple of weeks ago personally, and now I'm looking for a new job.

Theoretically it should work, as you're stating your intent to leave. In practice, employers will try and call your bluff.

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