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The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

nytimes.com

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Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#101

Post by coldtea »

msla wrote: post #22
gerard2 wrote: post #20

As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. And in fact the usage of the french language is quite diverse, even in France. You can have regiona…

> As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. But deciding what the prestige dialect is is inherently classist and racist, and reifying that cl…

>But deciding what the prestige dialect is is inherently classist and racist

It's only deemed so by a classist and racist prejudice (that judges other cultures by its own values and metrics to boot).

There's nothing "high class" about caring for language. People of all classes can and do root for the French language and Académie's role with it (and vice versa).

The idea that "poor people couldn't possibly agree with high standards of language" -- as if poor implies some kind of inferior intellect, or less concern with such things as use of language, arts, etc, is classist itself.

>It's one thing to say "Your dialect is wrong because some amorphous entity says it is" and quite another to say "Your dialect is wrong because this specific group of old people says it is".

They don't want "amorphous entities" in them here parts. They believe in people, scholars and artists with proven track record that are deemed worthy to be guards of the language and art (which also tends to make them "old", which in matters of experience is prudent. They don't want people eager to bring the "next hot thing" and "fad du jour" in, but people that have seen things, and are blasé about empty novelties).

Also, France has historically been a predominantly "white" nation, as were the people who shaped the language in the first place, so by representation it makes sense most of Académie to be white (it includes people of Chinese, Haitian, etc ethnical origins too). Despite that, France has a much better track record for how it treats its blacks, to have the finger pointed at them by Americans.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#102

Post by raverbashing »

benj111 wrote: post #100
raverbashing wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> None of them seem particularly well thought out, or planned. The question is: is anything planned? People don't even use the correct possessive version of 'it' on the internet. Ox became Oxen because the plural 'en' was the productive plural construction at the time, and it made more sense than writing 'Oxes'. For the other words there might have been a historical reason (or just no reason at all) for it.

French is kind of planned, that's why we're having this conversation.

"Formal French" is planned, but the language goes on without it.

For example, the AF is oblivious to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verlan (unless a word there ends hitting common usage)

> Some verlan words, such as meuf, have become so commonplace that they have been included in the Petit Larousse[3] and a doubly "verlanised" version was deemed necessary, so the singly verlanised meuf became feumeu; similarly, the verlan word beur, derived from arabe, has become accepted into popular culture such that it has been re-verlanised to yield rebeu

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#103

Post by flexie »

coldtea wrote: post #79
flexie wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah - you don't think it's a little off that a tiny, obscure and exclusive group of 70-100 year olds, dressed up in costumes from a bygone era, gets to decide what goes into your official dictionary? Especially when they talk in such pompous way: "Words shoot up like geysers from your pen, tumble in cascades, swirl about, bump into each other, are never at rest". That doesn't sound like someone I would chose to guard…

> Ah - you don't think it's a little off that a tiny, obscure and exclusive group of 70-100 year olds, dressed up in costumes from a bygone era, gets to decide what goes into your official dictionary? No. > "Words shoot up like geysers from your pen, tumble in cascades, swirl about, bump into each other, are never at rest" Better that, than the mix of pop culture references and business weasel words, the English have…

I am a continental European myself and have lived in three European countries, two of which are republics (not France though). You?

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#104

Post by madshiva »

magicmouse wrote: post #82

The Latin language was destroyed by pompous academicians who refused to allow the language to grow organically. The Academie Francaise has set in motion the destruction of the importance of the french language, because if you don't allow flexibility in your language, eventually people abandon it. Dante's Inferno was i believe one of the first novels done in the vernacular Italian. They can claim they are protecting i…

The only problem is with some of people using English word when there's clearly alternative. Like a marketing trends.

Hashtag, Meeting, Proof of concept have clear traduction. They don't know what a proof of concept is and use it for testing product…

We don't care about the french academie because the way people talk is way more important and make these change to the writting after.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#105

Post by gerard2 »

msla wrote: post #22
gerard2 wrote: post #20

As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. And in fact the usage of the french language is quite diverse, even in France. You can have regiona…

> As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. But deciding what the prestige dialect is is inherently classist and racist, and reifying that cl…

I don't know if the Academie is racist, but one of the most famous immortals is Leopold Sedar Senghor, a Senegalese poet and politician, elected in 1983. Only 20 years after the end of the segregation in the US.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#106

Post by datdata »

seszett wrote: post #77
bewo001 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The German 'Duden' is comparable in its role to Webster/Johnson. A private dictionary publisher who somehow managed to be regarded as the standard for a language.

That's the Larousse for French, or the competing Robert. Or the Littré if you're a writer with pedant and traditionalist tendencies. The Académie is not the main reference for orthography (and its dictionary is incomplete) or for the general rules of the French language, its goal is to steer the language towards consistency, and recognize whatever new usage emerges.

orthographe = spelling. No offense intended. Just trying to help.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#107

Post by seszett »

raverbashing wrote: post #102
benj111 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French is kind of planned, that's why we're having this conversation.

"Formal French" is planned, but the language goes on without it. For example, the AF is oblivious to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verlan (unless a word there ends hitting common usage) > Some verlan words, such as meuf, have become so commonplace that they have been included in the Petit Larousse[3] and a doubly "verlanised" version was deemed necessary, so the singly verlanised meuf became feumeu; similarly, the ve…

The Académie is much more au fait with modern French than you think it is.

This communication, from 2001, on the future of the French language for example http://www.academie-francaise.fr/lavenir-de-la-langue-franca... talks at length about verlan. Just to translate a small excerpt:

A language that stays still is a dying language. Ours is enriching in proportions never seen before. What the 21th century will bring us is verlan. It would be useless to fight it, as oral language has always preceded written language.

I think the Académie is much more competent than many people here think it is.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#108

Post by gerard2 »

raverbashing wrote: post #102
benj111 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French is kind of planned, that's why we're having this conversation.

"Formal French" is planned, but the language goes on without it. For example, the AF is oblivious to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verlan (unless a word there ends hitting common usage) > Some verlan words, such as meuf, have become so commonplace that they have been included in the Petit Larousse[3] and a doubly "verlanised" version was deemed necessary, so the singly verlanised meuf became feumeu; similarly, the ve…

Ahah yes, verlan is quite common for certain words for certain people. But nobody thinks it is legit french. It's like using terms like "doggo", "boi" or "nite" in english.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#109

Post by anonu »

gerard2 wrote: post #20

As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. And in fact the usage of the french language is quite diverse, even in France. You can have regiona…

It appears wasteful. Being deadlocked, spending multiples of $100k on ceremonies. The group should be promoting the language and getting people excited about it's use. Instead, French speakers feel guilty when they say 'email' instead of 'courriel' because an ineffectual body refused to admit an Englishism into the language. This holds the language back. Languages are fluid, living breathing things and that aspect should be promoted.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#110

Post by tronko »

onli wrote: post #67
seszett wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neither English, Spanish nor German have a dedicated powerful centralized institution that makes those decisions for the language, and I guess Chinese doesn't either? Among this list, only English doesn't have an institution. All three other languages (Spanish, German and Chinese) have multiple institutions, basically one per country that speaks the language, just like French.

German does not have such an institution - I am German and that's just a fact. Spanish might have such an institution, but it evidently does not work - Mexican Spanish != Spanish Spanish != .... Note that I did not say it does not exist, I said there is no "powerful centralized" instance deciding this. I stand to this judgement, also for Spanish. The extent of the actual influence wielded by the academie francaise se…

Mexican Spanish is a dialect in the same way Spanish Spanish or West-Andalucian Spanish... However, all Spanish dialects are Spanish.
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