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The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

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Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#71

Post by ordu »

flexie wrote: post #64
gerard2 wrote: post #20

As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. And in fact the usage of the french language is quite diverse, even in France. You can have regiona…

Ah - you don't think it's a little off that a tiny, obscure and exclusive group of 70-100 year olds, dressed up in costumes from a bygone era, gets to decide what goes into your official dictionary? Especially when they talk in such pompous way: "Words shoot up like geysers from your pen, tumble in cascades, swirl about, bump into each other, are never at rest". That doesn't sound like someone I would chose to guard…

> "Words shoot up like geysers from your pen, tumble in cascades, swirl about, bump into each other, are never at rest". That doesn't sound like someone I would chose to guard a language.

I would not judge based on a single phrase, because I can imagine a very different minds which can produce it. He can be a person who likes to speak, who tries to get a maximum from the language he speaks, who knows language and loves it. Or maybe he just an impositor, consciously or unconsciously. He can love old language and hate any attempts to change it, or he can be happy with some changes while rejecting others.

At last, he can just a few minute ago had a conversation with someone else, who spoke like that and it was good, and under impression of that he accidently did the same. It happens sometimes. So this phrase could be produced not by a special mind, but by a special state of mind and had nothing to do with personality traits.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#72

Post by SiempreViernes »

onli wrote: post #67
seszett wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neither English, Spanish nor German have a dedicated powerful centralized institution that makes those decisions for the language, and I guess Chinese doesn't either? Among this list, only English doesn't have an institution. All three other languages (Spanish, German and Chinese) have multiple institutions, basically one per country that speaks the language, just like French.

German does not have such an institution - I am German and that's just a fact. Spanish might have such an institution, but it evidently does not work - Mexican Spanish != Spanish Spanish != .... Note that I did not say it does not exist, I said there is no "powerful centralized" instance deciding this. I stand to this judgement, also for Spanish. The extent of the actual influence wielded by the academie francaise se…

At this point you are attributing the French academy superhuman powers, the Académie Française have of course exactly the same influence as the RAE: they make the definitive dictionary and then despair a bit about all the shit words they will have to include in the next version.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#73

Post by bewo001 »

seszett wrote: post #57
onli wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some people must decide how this standard should adapt with the evolution of the world Actually, no. Neither English, Spanish nor German have a dedicated powerful centralized institution that makes those decisions for the language, and I guess Chinese doesn't either? > But the decision they make are not arbitrary decisions based on their personal feelings, they are guided by the etymology of french. French differs…

> Neither English, Spanish nor German have a dedicated powerful centralized institution that makes those decisions for the language, and I guess Chinese doesn't either? Among this list, only English doesn't have an institution. All three other languages (Spanish, German and Chinese) have multiple institutions, basically one per country that speaks the language, just like French.

The German 'Duden' is comparable in its role to Webster/Johnson. A private dictionary publisher who somehow managed to be regarded as the standard for a language.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#74

Post by jcelerier »

vixen99 wrote: post #42
dorfsmay wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is to sit back and make choices that make sense when there is a conflict or that are more aligned with the rest if the language, and avoid messes like "biweekly".

English speakers themselves are quite capable of sorting this kind of thing out for themselves without waiting for the deliberations of the appointed whose decisions they'll probably ignore anyway - as do the French, one gathers. Life and English are both messy but we muddle through.

> Life and English are both messy but we muddle through.

As a french, it is not muddling that I want but reasoning.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#75

Post by seszett »

onli wrote: post #67
seszett wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neither English, Spanish nor German have a dedicated powerful centralized institution that makes those decisions for the language, and I guess Chinese doesn't either? Among this list, only English doesn't have an institution. All three other languages (Spanish, German and Chinese) have multiple institutions, basically one per country that speaks the language, just like French.

German does not have such an institution - I am German and that's just a fact. Spanish might have such an institution, but it evidently does not work - Mexican Spanish != Spanish Spanish != .... Note that I did not say it does not exist, I said there is no "powerful centralized" instance deciding this. I stand to this judgement, also for Spanish. The extent of the actual influence wielded by the academie francaise se…

I think you are overestimating the actual influence of the Académie then, because it has little. The new words they propose are seldom adopted, and are eventually dropped as they only formalize actual usage. They're not creating a parallel language. The education system is also governed by a different language institution.

And just like Spanish, French is governed by different entities in different countries. The French and Québec councils are the most influent ones - and France French and Québec French are also the most divergent versions.

The French language is only "powerfully centralized" within each French-speaking country. And even then, only among a few countries.

I would say it is actually less centralized than the German language, which has a single institution that oversees orthography in ALL the German-speaking world. The French language has nothing like that.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#76

Post by kgwgk »

pqs wrote: post #55
onli wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some people must decide how this standard should adapt with the evolution of the world Actually, no. Neither English, Spanish nor German have a dedicated powerful centralized institution that makes those decisions for the language, and I guess Chinese doesn't either? > But the decision they make are not arbitrary decisions based on their personal feelings, they are guided by the etymology of french. French differs…

Spanish has the Royal Academy of the Spanish Language, which is exactly like the French Académie. Many latin-American countries have an equivalent, and they coordinate with the Spanish one.

Minor correction: the name of the institution doesn’t include the word “language”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Spanish_Academy

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#77

Post by seszett »

bewo001 wrote: post #73
seszett wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neither English, Spanish nor German have a dedicated powerful centralized institution that makes those decisions for the language, and I guess Chinese doesn't either? Among this list, only English doesn't have an institution. All three other languages (Spanish, German and Chinese) have multiple institutions, basically one per country that speaks the language, just like French.

The German 'Duden' is comparable in its role to Webster/Johnson. A private dictionary publisher who somehow managed to be regarded as the standard for a language.

That's the Larousse for French, or the competing Robert. Or the Littré if you're a writer with pedant and traditionalist tendencies.

The Académie is not the main reference for orthography (and its dictionary is incomplete) or for the general rules of the French language, its goal is to steer the language towards consistency, and recognize whatever new usage emerges.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#78

Post by Tsubasachan »

gerard2 wrote: post #20

As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. And in fact the usage of the french language is quite diverse, even in France. You can have regiona…

I just love the French for their quaintness.

Meanwhile if you want a masters study Dutch language at a Dutch university it is entirely taught in English...

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#79

Post by coldtea »

flexie wrote: post #64
gerard2 wrote: post #20

As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. And in fact the usage of the french language is quite diverse, even in France. You can have regiona…

Ah - you don't think it's a little off that a tiny, obscure and exclusive group of 70-100 year olds, dressed up in costumes from a bygone era, gets to decide what goes into your official dictionary? Especially when they talk in such pompous way: "Words shoot up like geysers from your pen, tumble in cascades, swirl about, bump into each other, are never at rest". That doesn't sound like someone I would chose to guard…

>Ah - you don't think it's a little off that a tiny, obscure and exclusive group of 70-100 year olds, dressed up in costumes from a bygone era, gets to decide what goes into your official dictionary?

No.

>"Words shoot up like geysers from your pen, tumble in cascades, swirl about, bump into each other, are never at rest"

Better that, than the mix of pop culture references and business weasel words, the English have become.

I don't think, by your comment, that you understand the sentiments of continental Europeans in general, and the French in particular.

>For a republic, you sure seem to keep a fair share of antiquated institutions and traditions around

A republic is its traditions. Else it's just a market contract.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#80

Post by gpvos »

realusername wrote: post #60
qalmakka wrote: post #51

I never got the hang of this kind of myopic, senseless traditionalism. If Latin didn't let himself be bastardised with the influences of Frankish and Gaulish there wouldn't be any French.

Most European countries have a similar language board, English is more an exception than anything else. And there's not much Gaulish influence in French, here is the full (and small) list of words originating from Gaulish: https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Mots_en_fran%C...

I don't think any of those have so much pomp and circumstance about their functioning and composition, though.
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