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Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

nytimes.com

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Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#41

Post by crooked-v »

jsgrahamus1953 wrote: post #37
throwaway66677 wrote: post #14

While I think the “sovereign movement” is pretty laughable in both theory and action - I think this article smacks of a total lack of even attempting to understand where these people are coming from. It’s the same people that write these articles that are surprised by the vitriol directed at the press or “how trump won” The real question is what is driving these people to behave in such an irrational way? Might it be…

The federal government was created to ensure the People's rights and was only given jurisdiction in a limited number of areas (See Article 1, Section 8). It has seen fit to insert itself into innumerable areas, against which We the People have not protested vigorously enough. And this is despite court rulings, which state the People's sovereignty: When we consider the nature and the theory of our institutions of gove…

Sovereign citizen arguments generally reach well past any actual constitutional or legal principles and end up with stuff and nonsense like "that fringe on the flag means this is an admiralty court, so this ruling doesn't apply to me" or "by writing my name in all caps on the court document, you're actually talking about the legal corporation the government created in my name at birth".

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#42

Post by crooked-v »

throwaway66677 wrote: post #14

While I think the “sovereign movement” is pretty laughable in both theory and action - I think this article smacks of a total lack of even attempting to understand where these people are coming from. It’s the same people that write these articles that are surprised by the vitriol directed at the press or “how trump won” The real question is what is driving these people to behave in such an irrational way? Might it be…

> The real question is what is driving these people to behave in such an irrational way?

From what I understand, a substantial part of it is scam artists taking advantage of people who fundamentally lack understanding about the legal system. See this judge's ruling that contains a substantial guide on the subject, and look at the section "The OPCA Guru": https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012a...

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#43

Post by crooked-v »

isoprophlex wrote: post #6

> Rich people find loopholes. Why not us? and rich corporations, too. indeed, why not us?

The difference is that the loopholes rich people use generally actually exist, while the "loopholes" advertised by sovereign citizens are obvious nonsense like "by filing the right paperwork I can make the government give me a million dollars they're keeping in a secret bank account for a government-created corporation that's named after me except with all caps".

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#44

Post by mindslight »

crooked-v wrote: post #40
mindslight wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the theories posit that despite this, there is some deeper framework of law that the government still has to obey Isn't this the spirit of hacking in general? Of course, they're trying to hack a system rooted in fundamentals that undermine hacking. So rather than a vulnerability leading to a "full compromise", the best that can be obtained is a minor advantage.

When you apply "hacking" to the law, if you don't already know what you're doing very well, it usually ends up called "fraud". https://xkcd.com/1494/

"Fraud" is applicable to hacking contracts, not law in general. But yes, that's an example of what I meant by "fundamentals that undermine hacking".

Similarly, relying on technicalities you will still get tripped up by mens rea.

But other model-playing optimizations like tax avoidance are perfectly acceptable. As I said, "minor advantage" rather than "full compromise".

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#45

Post by [deleted] »

tormeh wrote: post #36
joe_the_user wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always been impressed by an odd contrast within theories of this sort. The theories posit that the government acted illegally in various ways. But at the same time, the theories posit that despite this, there is some deeper framework of law that the government still has to obey. Yet what force would cause this deeper law to prevail if the state was committed to its conspiracy? Of course, this sort of thing could…

I dunno. Germany has the same kind of thing. Search for "Reichsbürger". Essentially these people reject the modern German nation, and say they belong to one reich or another - either the Kaiserreich or the Nazi one. What these conspiracy people don't get is that a nation exists as a consequence of its subjects and warriors loyalty to it and obedience of it. It's just a power structure. All the legalities and voting a…

[deleted]

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#46

Post by tptacek »

volak wrote: post #13
habnds wrote: post #5

> Sovereigns, who sometimes call themselves “freemen” or “state citizens,” have no foundational document, but broadly they subscribe to an alternate version of American history. The tale can vary from sovereign to sovereign, but it goes roughly like this: At some point, a corporation secretly usurped the United States government, then went bankrupt and sought aid from international bankers. As collateral, the corpora…

The summary is slightly inadequate. There wasn't a corporation that usurped the government - the government made corporations of everyone Basically it goes like this - * SSN Act (created after the market crash) was created not only to provide faux "retirement" accounts but also "incorporate" every citizen of the country as a company upon birth. * New baby John Smith instantiates company JOHN SMITH with account 123-45…

Really? You have "no position" on this conspiracy theory? You think it's possible that it might actually be true that everyone has been "incorporated" via the Social Security Act?

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#47

Post by sarchertech »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #20
volak wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The summary is slightly inadequate. There wasn't a corporation that usurped the government - the government made corporations of everyone Basically it goes like this - * SSN Act (created after the market crash) was created not only to provide faux "retirement" accounts but also "incorporate" every citizen of the country as a company upon birth. * New baby John Smith instantiates company JOHN SMITH with account 123-45…

In the UK we sometimes get this stuff leaking in, which is really interesting to me as obviously it fits far more poorly (ie doesn't) with the legal-historical position here. It happens with "wage gap" stuff too; people assume the USA wage gap stats apply to them here. Oh yeah, and we get Trump supporters. I think copyright is the only other area I can recall where people assume USA legislation applies (that's a pre-…

>as obviously it fits far more poorly (ie doesn't) with the legal-historical position here

A country with a thousand years of accumulated legal rulings seems like fertile soil for conspiracy theories. Superseded common law is the framework for many sovereign citizen's arguments in the US.

>Oh yeah, and we get Trump supporters.

We also weirdly get Brexit supporters.

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#48

Post by ochenvoysim »

crooked-v wrote: post #39
ochenvoysim wrote: post #32

This insanity is HUGE in American prisons. There was a book called (I think) "One Man Out" where the author describes a case where someon used Sovereign Citizen declarations to get themselves released from incarceration supposedly. This somehow spread to nearly every correctional facility in the country and because many inmates are mentally ill in some fashion they eat this up (and it's a possible Get Out of Jail Fre…

This Canadian judge's ruling includes pretty much a full reference book on this kind of weird stuff and its attempted application to court systems (Canadian and U.S.), which he calls "Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument": https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012a...

oh man, labeling the preachers of this as "gurus" is perfect -- it's always one pseudo-intellectual convincing a group of followers lol. This really is the most organized and comprehensive summary for rebutting this nonsense in court that I've ever seen. I thought it was only an American issue... huh. It has to be exhausting dealing w/delusional people.

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#49

Post by ochenvoysim »

ochenvoysim wrote: post #48
crooked-v wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This Canadian judge's ruling includes pretty much a full reference book on this kind of weird stuff and its attempted application to court systems (Canadian and U.S.), which he calls "Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument": https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012a...

oh man, labeling the preachers of this as "gurus" is perfect -- it's always one pseudo-intellectual convincing a group of followers lol. This really is the most organized and comprehensive summary for rebutting this nonsense in court that I've ever seen. I thought it was only an American issue... huh. It has to be exhausting dealing w/delusional people.

"vexatious litigants" -- lmfao

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#50

Post by ochenvoysim »

ochenvoysim wrote: post #32

This insanity is HUGE in American prisons. There was a book called (I think) "One Man Out" where the author describes a case where someon used Sovereign Citizen declarations to get themselves released from incarceration supposedly. This somehow spread to nearly every correctional facility in the country and because many inmates are mentally ill in some fashion they eat this up (and it's a possible Get Out of Jail Fre…

Found great summary (with insane video!) https://unitedtruthseekers.com/profiles/blogs/take-back-your...
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