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Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

nytimes.com

31–40 of 56 posts

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#31
post #21

This is kind of related, but someone told me yesterday that if you move to Puerto Rico you pay 0 federal personal income tax (note: if you live anywhere else in the world as a US citizen you still pay taxes on your income), and although they have their own taxation system it's basically 0 for newcomers because they want to attract investment. If I want to sell a large chunk of capital gains in a single year, is there…

It's not 0, it's 4% and you need to jump through some hoops to do it, but basically yes. You need to get it reclassified from capital gains to consulting/contractor income. I know multiple people who've moved to PR for tax purposes.

Ok, 4% is still very low.

Even with a few hoops that I assume are manageable if others are doing it, it seems way too good to be true. I would seriously consider moving if I lined up a bunch of capital gains to liquidate in a single year.

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#32
This insanity is HUGE in American prisons. There was a book called (I think) "One Man Out" where the author describes a case where someon used Sovereign Citizen declarations to get themselves released from incarceration supposedly. This somehow spread to nearly every correctional facility in the country and because many inmates are mentally ill in some fashion they eat this up (and it's a possible Get Out of Jail Free card, and when you're serving 60+ years I'm sure you'd try damn near anything to be released). Usually this results in just a lot of talk about becoming sovereign citizens and getting, and getting the millions of dollars held in some secret bank account attached to your social security number... and ends with some idiot filing liens against the warden of the prison (not making this shit up) and then the prisons banning all Uniform Commercial Code reference books from the institutions. I don't remember why but something to do with the whole name in all caps means you're actually a corp of some flavor - social security card is a bank account - there's millions of dollars backing that SS number - you can file liens as a corp against the warden for restricting your corp's free trade or traveling rights or some such fuckery -- then the lien will force the warden by the laws of the UCC to let you out..... It's insane, even for prison. edit -- found an example of the lien's real effects: https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-xpm-2001-04-08-0...

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#33
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not 0, it's 4% and you need to jump through some hoops to do it, but basically yes. You need to get it reclassified from capital gains to consulting/contractor income. I know multiple people who've moved to PR for tax purposes.

Ok, 4% is still very low. Even with a few hoops that I assume are manageable if others are doing it, it seems way too good to be true. I would seriously consider moving if I lined up a bunch of capital gains to liquidate in a single year.

If it's relevant, shell out a couple grand to a competent tax lawyer and make sure you know what you're doing.

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#34
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The summary is slightly inadequate. There wasn't a corporation that usurped the government - the government made corporations of everyone Basically it goes like this - * SSN Act (created after the market crash) was created not only to provide faux "retirement" accounts but also "incorporate" every citizen of the country as a company upon birth. * New baby John Smith instantiates company JOHN SMITH with account 123-45…

I've always been impressed by an odd contrast within theories of this sort. The theories posit that the government acted illegally in various ways. But at the same time, the theories posit that despite this, there is some deeper framework of law that the government still has to obey. Yet what force would cause this deeper law to prevail if the state was committed to its conspiracy? Of course, this sort of thing could…

> the theories posit that despite this, there is some deeper framework of law that the government still has to obey

Isn't this the spirit of hacking in general?

Of course, they're trying to hack a system rooted in fundamentals that undermine hacking. So rather than a vulnerability leading to a "full compromise", the best that can be obtained is a minor advantage.

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#35
post #27

Enjoy this video of sovereign citizens running headfirst into reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUgmc7kKqOI

I love the Australian one, the guys think that having a rental car means they can break any laws, and then when they're stopped they say "Am I under arrest?" as if it's the magic words that make the cops go away.

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#36
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The summary is slightly inadequate. There wasn't a corporation that usurped the government - the government made corporations of everyone Basically it goes like this - * SSN Act (created after the market crash) was created not only to provide faux "retirement" accounts but also "incorporate" every citizen of the country as a company upon birth. * New baby John Smith instantiates company JOHN SMITH with account 123-45…

I've always been impressed by an odd contrast within theories of this sort. The theories posit that the government acted illegally in various ways. But at the same time, the theories posit that despite this, there is some deeper framework of law that the government still has to obey. Yet what force would cause this deeper law to prevail if the state was committed to its conspiracy? Of course, this sort of thing could…

I dunno. Germany has the same kind of thing. Search for "Reichsbürger". Essentially these people reject the modern German nation, and say they belong to one reich or another - either the Kaiserreich or the Nazi one.

What these conspiracy people don't get is that a nation exists as a consequence of its subjects and warriors loyalty to it and obedience of it. It's just a power structure. All the legalities and voting and bureaucracy around it are just there because it's much easier for everyone to live with a power structure that behaves predictably, justly and generally nicely. But the legalities are not actually necessary. At the core the answer to "Why?" is "Because we can".

Note that I'm generally pro-government. I'd rather have one nice power structure to deal with than a world operating after the rules of school, where I have to protect my lunch money myself. This is just reality.

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#37

While I think the “sovereign movement” is pretty laughable in both theory and action - I think this article smacks of a total lack of even attempting to understand where these people are coming from. It’s the same people that write these articles that are surprised by the vitriol directed at the press or “how trump won” The real question is what is driving these people to behave in such an irrational way? Might it be…

The federal government was created to ensure the People's rights and was only given jurisdiction in a limited number of areas (See Article 1, Section 8).

It has seen fit to insert itself into innumerable areas, against which We the People have not protested vigorously enough. And this is despite court rulings, which state the People's sovereignty:

When we consider the nature and the theory of our institutions of government, the principles upon which they are supposed to rest, and review the history of their development, we are constrained to conclude that they do not mean to leave room for the play and action of purely personal and arbitrary power. Sovereignty itself is, of course, not subject to law, for it is the author and source of law; but, in our system, while sovereign powers are delegated to the agencies of government, sovereignty itself remains with the people, by whom and for whom all government exists and acts. And the law is the definition and limitation of power. It is, indeed, quite true that there must always be lodged somewhere, and in some person or body, the authority of final decision, and in many cases of mere administration, the responsibility is purely political, no appeal lying except to the ultimate tribunal of the public judgment, exercised either in the pressure of opinion or by means of the suffrage. But the fundamental rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, considered as individual possessions, are secured by those maxims of constitutional law which are the monuments showing the victorious progress of the race in securing to men the blessings of civilization under the reign of just and equal laws, so that, in the famous language of the Massachusetts Bill of Rights, the government of the commonwealth "may be a government of laws, and not of men." For the very idea that one man may be compelled to hold his life, or the means of living, or any material right essential to the enjoyment of life at the mere will of another seems to be intolerable in any country where freedom prevails, as being the essence of slavery itself. [118 U.S. 356

Yick Wo v. Hopkins - https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/118/356]

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#38
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feds didn't have power to enact laws on individual citizens, so they enacted a law on citizens to convert them to corporations? Puzzled.

Citizens apply to SSN and a corporation is created for them - they are not forced to apply for one. Even to this day you can have a baby and not apply to SSN (increasing a good idea given the state of the program)

yeah actually, it isn't a conspiracy theory but more like cultural critical theory, the book Seeing Like a State, is a great read about how the state works to transform the natural world into a world that can be quantified and managed by bureaucracy.

One of it's most interesting examples is how early modern governments reformed agricultural practices, not to raise productivity levels but to make them more easily measured and therefore taxed.

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#39

This insanity is HUGE in American prisons. There was a book called (I think) "One Man Out" where the author describes a case where someon used Sovereign Citizen declarations to get themselves released from incarceration supposedly. This somehow spread to nearly every correctional facility in the country and because many inmates are mentally ill in some fashion they eat this up (and it's a possible Get Out of Jail Fre…

This Canadian judge's ruling includes pretty much a full reference book on this kind of weird stuff and its attempted application to court systems (Canadian and U.S.), which he calls "Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument": https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012a...

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always been impressed by an odd contrast within theories of this sort. The theories posit that the government acted illegally in various ways. But at the same time, the theories posit that despite this, there is some deeper framework of law that the government still has to obey. Yet what force would cause this deeper law to prevail if the state was committed to its conspiracy? Of course, this sort of thing could…

> the theories posit that despite this, there is some deeper framework of law that the government still has to obey Isn't this the spirit of hacking in general? Of course, they're trying to hack a system rooted in fundamentals that undermine hacking. So rather than a vulnerability leading to a "full compromise", the best that can be obtained is a minor advantage.

When you apply "hacking" to the law, if you don't already know what you're doing very well, it usually ends up called "fraud".

https://xkcd.com/1494/

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