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After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

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Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#41

Post by mamon »

herbstein wrote: post #16
jgmjgm wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. This type of criticism is unwarranted and I suspect disingenuous. There are lots of contexts in which we can say we would like to see more data. However, when someone is making a point which is a fairly standard one in the Brexit debates we don't need "references". Nor would referring to an article that said the same thing as OP somehow validate the point. There is a place for asking for references, but on…

One of the big reasons that pulled people to voting "no" was the perceived "invasion" of immigrants. There was a perception that EU were forcing the UK's hand, and aiding the "invasion".

One of the basic EU freedoms is free movement of people. Member states have no legal way of blocking people from other member states from coming (except for initial grace period, after new members were accepted into EU), so "forcing UK's hand" is a pretty accurate description.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#43

Post by viraptor »

dbdjfjrjvebd wrote: post #8
viraptor wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may need some references for that idea. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Listening to people that voted for Brexit has shown me that they voted for it for many reasons. This is one of the reasons that people have given me. Furthermore this is a reason that many remainers were not able to push the case for remain strongly enough.

I was looking more for large surveys. I've seen lots of them pointing out control of the laws as a reason, but none that singled out corruption as a reason.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#44

Post by viraptor »

jgmjgm wrote: post #10
viraptor wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may need some references for that idea. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Nonsense. This type of criticism is unwarranted and I suspect disingenuous. There are lots of contexts in which we can say we would like to see more data. However, when someone is making a point which is a fairly standard one in the Brexit debates we don't need "references". Nor would referring to an article that said the same thing as OP somehow validate the point. There is a place for asking for references, but on…

> However, when someone is making a point which is a fairly standard one in the Brexit debates we don't need "references".

If it's fairly standard I should be able to find at least one survey mentioning it online, right? I tried before sending that comment and couldn't find a single one pointing out corruption and bureaucracy as main reasons. (Or even at all) Ironically I find only articles about corruption in Vote Leave campaign. If it's that standard opinion, please post any source which ranks it against other reasons.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#45

Post by johnnyfaehell »

DINKDINK wrote: post #38
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious why you think upholding copyright is a travesty?

Regardless if you think "copyright" increases or decreases quality of life, it is irrefutable that it violates Natural rights. If I memorize an illegal number [1], then I've made an copy that the corporate/state doesn't allow and consequently, I no longer own my body. Enforcement of copyright breaks the NAP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

I don't think you understand what a copy is. Memorising something isn't a copy. The Wikipedia page you linked to doesn't even list knowing an illegal number as a crime. It says process, utter, or transmit.

I personally feel like you've tried really hard to find something that makes copyright look like a bad thing and something that breaches your human rights. But all I think is you don't know what you're talking about.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#46

Post by daveFNbuck »

bjelkeman-again wrote: post #33
daveFNbuck wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leading up to the Brexit vote, there was famously a bus driving around expressing the idea that voting to leave would result in a savings of 350 million pounds per week, which could be reinvested in the NHS. I don't think there was a bus about bureaucracy.

That claim was a misuse of statistics. It was more like 250M. https://fullfact.org/europe/350-million-week-boris-johnson-s...

250M is also wrong, as mentioned in your link. It doesn't account for the benefits of EU membership.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#48

Post by daveFNbuck »

areyousure wrote: post #35
daveFNbuck wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leading up to the Brexit vote, there was famously a bus driving around expressing the idea that voting to leave would result in a savings of 350 million pounds per week, which could be reinvested in the NHS. I don't think there was a bus about bureaucracy.

The UKIP bus pictured here one week before the Brexit vote says "British farmers freed from bureaucracy - Stuart Agnew MEP": https://twitter.com/ukip/status/743369504844091393 (It also says "Free business from EU red tape - Margot Parker MEP".)

I wouldn't say that bus was about bureaucracy. If anything, it bolsters the point that the Brexit vote wasn't about any one issue.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#50

Post by claudiawerner »

DINKDINK wrote: post #38
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious why you think upholding copyright is a travesty?

Regardless if you think "copyright" increases or decreases quality of life, it is irrefutable that it violates Natural rights. If I memorize an illegal number [1], then I've made an copy that the corporate/state doesn't allow and consequently, I no longer own my body. Enforcement of copyright breaks the NAP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

Is there any reason to think the EU endorses any "natural rights" idea, other than the ones they say they do? Is there any reason to think that the EU has enshrined or attempted to enshrine the NAP into law? In fact, I can only ever identify the NAP being spoken about by right-libertarians, who are a very, very small minority in European politics as far as I can tell. There are ways to criticise copyright as unjust without relying on the fact that it violates a fairly recent libertarian concept.

I'd also question whether ownership of one's body is something a society should aim for. It seems to lead to various repugnant conclusions, including but not limited to the potential to sell oneself into slavery and to sell one's organs. Even in libertarianism this is a radical point of view. The default in today's society is that you don't own your body - so a criticism of copyright on the presumption that it is inconsistent with the rest of the law has very little force. You would be better off arguing on property rights, but even then you'll run into trouble (e.g many would say that the prohibition against possessing child pornography is justifiable even on J.S. Mill's harm principle).

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