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Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing Right to Repair

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Re: Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing Right to Repair

#131

Post by TeMPOraL »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #53
Dylan16807 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel about mandatory warranty periods? I see the requirement of repair manuals for a mass-produced product as a very similar thing, and both are justified as part of ensuring a fair bargain where you get what you paid for, not a device that randomly fails and wastes all the money you put into it.

> How do you feel about mandatory warranty periods? You know what you're getting when you buy the product. It's critically important to be able to say "no warranty whatsoever"; Open Source wouldn't exist without that, and neither would the (still quite small) open hardware community. Nor, for that matter, would small hardware manufacturers. (I do feel that you should always be legally allowed to try repairing somethi…

> You know what you're getting when you buy the product.

To add to what others said on it: no, you don't. You would if the manufacturers provided full specs, data sheets and CAD drawings of the internals. They don't, for obvious reasons. What's worse, the whole point of a sales copy is to confuse you about what you're getting - providing disinformation, in form of vague promises of emotional effects and feature statements so broad you could drive an aircraft carrier through. A lot of consumer laws exist to counter this dynamic.

> Open Source wouldn't exist without that

It would, if the software was also free :). This is a longer topic, but there's an argument to be made that software industry is in its sorry state precisely because it's allowed to sell software "with no warranty whatsoever".

Re: Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing Right to Repair

#132

Post by TeMPOraL »

brokenmachine wrote: post #94
Sharlin wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We must prevent repairs in order to maximize shareholder profit in order for the wealth to trickle down in order to allow consumers to replace their nonserviceable goods.

How trickle-down economics works: First, the shareholders get all the profits. Then what? ...that's it.

The trick is to shove money at the shareholders faster than they can bank or consume it - this way, the overflow will spill down to the lower tiers of society.

/s

Re: Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing Right to Repair

#133

Post by programmer_dude »

eridius wrote: post #117
eridius wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Measure that make it harder (but not impossible) for users to disassemble their devices serves to avoid people doing accidental damage (and voiding their warrantee). It's possible to get a pentalobe screwdriver, and anyone not willing to get one probably has no business opening up an Apple product.

For those downvoting me, if you genuinely think that pentalobe screws are bad, can you please explain why someone who doesn't have access to a pentalobe screwdriver has even the slightest business opening up an iPhone?

Wow circular logic much? So anyone without a pentalobe screwdriver is not qualified to replace a battery (for example)?

Re: Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing Right to Repair

#134

Post by simion314 »

iguy wrote: post #128
simion314 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How were the markets less free in the south? From what I know from history the difference was that south was more agriculture focused and this meant they had different interest then the north , I am not from US so I did not studied all the details of US history. Even if say free market solved the issue, is it reasonable to wait centuries for the free markets to solve things then dare to vote some laws ?

Well the labor market was certainly less free, for one :) It's worth knowing that the south was once considerably richer than the north, but industrialisation changed things in the 19th C, by the end of which the north was vastly richer (per capita), richer than anywhere had ever been before. In this sense free capitalism did vastly outcompete an unfree economy.

IMO not free market solved the problem.

Re: Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing Right to Repair

#135

Post by wlesieutre »

threeseed wrote: post #116
jandrese wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but it was half a centimeter thicker, and therefore useless to today's Apple.

You make it sound like Apple is doing this despite their customers. But nobody other than a handful of people would rather have a much heavier device in exchange for being able to replace their WiFi card or keyboard.

Maybe not, but there's a middle ground somewhere between "keyboard replacement takes 30 seconds" and "keyboard replacement means replacing the entire top case assembly because it's all glued together."

Borrowing some comments from MacRumors forums for price:

> If a repair, the invoices I have from top case replacement due to failed keyboards show a parts cost of $695 and a flat rate labor cost of $100, for a total of $795 plus any applicable tax. At last count, I have six such invoices from failed keyboards.

> That's what it shows on my invoice as well, thank God for AppleCare. I have only had the one, I hope I don't need it again. By chance, did you discuss replacement with that many failures? I would hope that's an option at some point.

(These are from January last year, a few months before Apple admitted they had a problem and extended the keyboard warranty to 4 years)

For a keyboard a higher failure rate than their previous models, that's not a good trade-off. People have other reasons to want a Mac laptop, maybe they don't know what they're getting into, so they're still buying it. But the longer this continues the more lasting damage it does to Apple's laptop reputation.

https://www.wsj.com/graphics/apple-still-hasnt-fixed-its-mac...

Right now people can talk themselves into buying a more expensive laptop from Apple by saying "it's a good computer and it'll last for years." What happens when you can't justify that anymore?

Re: Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing Right to Repair

#136

Post by dwild »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #95
voxic11 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are misconstruing the aims of the right to repair movement. Its nothing to do with forcing companies to make it "easy" to repair, but rather about preventing companies from including "features" which serve no purpose besides preventing third party repair. An example would be a tractor that is designed to be cheaply serviceable, but has a feature which disables any replaced parts until a message signed by…

Also providing documentation? I think technicians sometimes have to seek internal documents through illicit means.

> Also providing documentation?

It's also important to specify that we don't ask for MORE documentation (although that wouldn't hurt), just access to the documentation they give to the authorized technician, or their own staff.

Re: Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing Right to Repair

#137

Post by dwild »

mises wrote: post #106
voxic11 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are misconstruing the aims of the right to repair movement. Its nothing to do with forcing companies to make it "easy" to repair, but rather about preventing companies from including "features" which serve no purpose besides preventing third party repair. An example would be a tractor that is designed to be cheaply serviceable, but has a feature which disables any replaced parts until a message signed by…

Where do you draw the line at repair-hostile vs. secure? I agree many things are hostile to repair, but let's take the new T2. It's awful for repair, but actually does have security benefits against evil maid attacks, a serious security risk. Stuff like this also applies to unrootable androids (a major pet peeve of mine). I think we all would do well to remember that it's always easier to say something is wrong than…

> Stuff like this also applies to unrootable androids

I can't flash my Android phone without unlocking it, which format it, and as long as it's unlocked, there's a warning message on boot.

There's always a way to make it serviceable, worst case, allow the user to deactivate theses security feature after a full format.

Re: Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing Right to Repair

#138

Post by simion314 »

dmitriid wrote: post #76
simion314 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why should Apple be special? As an example for cars most countries have laws that force them to provide you parts years after the car is no longer sold, don't you think that having companies not selling you parts make them have to much control over you? 1 So let me know why should some companies not sell parts? 2 why not share the pdf with schematics and diagnostic software or punish people that share them(is not…

IIRC there are also laws that after a certain time anyone is allowed to produce and cell (certain?) car parts to ensure that cars that are on the road can still be repaired and serviced. Same should be applied to electronics (and a wide range of other consumer goods).

Exactly, imagine the abuse if say only Ford could sell Ford windshields or other parts and you had to change the parts on approved store that may not even exist in your country. I bet Ford would like top patent and copyright the parts and have the monopoly on them but fortunately we have laws for that and we need similar laws for electronics too.

Re: Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing Right to Repair

#139

Post by mises »

dwild wrote: post #137
mises wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you draw the line at repair-hostile vs. secure? I agree many things are hostile to repair, but let's take the new T2. It's awful for repair, but actually does have security benefits against evil maid attacks, a serious security risk. Stuff like this also applies to unrootable androids (a major pet peeve of mine). I think we all would do well to remember that it's always easier to say something is wrong than…

> Stuff like this also applies to unrootable androids I can't flash my Android phone without unlocking it, which format it, and as long as it's unlocked, there's a warning message on boot. There's always a way to make it serviceable, worst case, allow the user to deactivate theses security feature after a full format.

Yes, and I would say that might be a good middle ground. I personally really like having the freedom to customize the software I run on the device. However, there's always the security question, and it's true that not being able to run unsigned ring 0 code is a powerful security feature.

Re: Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing Right to Repair

#140

Post by JoshTriplett »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #82
JoshTriplett wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you feel about mandatory warranty periods? You know what you're getting when you buy the product. It's critically important to be able to say "no warranty whatsoever"; Open Source wouldn't exist without that, and neither would the (still quite small) open hardware community. Nor, for that matter, would small hardware manufacturers. (I do feel that you should always be legally allowed to try repairing somethi…

> You know what you're getting when you buy the product. No you don't. That's most of the point of warranties. > Open Source Sharing source code isn't a sale. If you do sell a program, open/closed source doesn't matter, and you don't need the ability to say "no warranty". > open hardware community. Nor, for that matter, would small hardware manufacturers. If you make more than a thousand of something, you have the re…

> If you make more than a thousand of something, you have the resources to include a few diagrams and a simple but useful manual. For now I won't say anything about smaller quantities.

If someone makes more than a thousand of something, they probably also have the resources to buy you a free lunch, too. But that's not the product you bought.

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