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Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

bloomberg.com

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Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#81

Post by etskinner »

stcredzero wrote: post #30

I've envisioned an application like the following for construction sites and industrial installations: There would be a "supervisor" app with a schematic 3D model of the site, with dots or tags indicating the location of smartphones of workers, who have installed a satellite app. There would be messaging between the satellite apps and the supervisor app, and a worker with a satellite app could stream video or post pi…

You're loosely describing BIM (Building information modeling)[1], but you definitely bring up some novel points that aren't covered by existing BIM softwares, to my knowledge.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_information_modeling

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#82

Post by httpz »

pongogogo wrote: post #80

Wouldn't it be quicker and more accurate to just survey contracting firms? Seems massively over engineered and not very reliable.

They are traders not oil refinery managers. If a trader has the knowledge that a refinery is having a problem minutes or even seconds before other traders they can use that to their advantage and maybe make profit in the market.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#83

Post by tantalor »

anigbrowl wrote: post #77
tantalor wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parts between "fake" and "profit".

This won't meet the elements of fraud in the US because while you could argue that the performative activity was a deliberate representation (in contrast to a false claim where I tell you directly about a great deal on a bridge that doesn't really exist), you'll have trouble establishing the detrimental reliance aspect. If you see misleading activity and then jump to an incorrect conclusion instead of verifying its t…

Not true if the other party stands to profit from the misleading activity. For example, pump & dump

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#84

Post by Rebelgecko »

stcredzero wrote: post #30

I've envisioned an application like the following for construction sites and industrial installations: There would be a "supervisor" app with a schematic 3D model of the site, with dots or tags indicating the location of smartphones of workers, who have installed a satellite app. There would be messaging between the satellite apps and the supervisor app, and a worker with a satellite app could stream video or post pi…

I saw a cool demo using Project Tango that did this, except it didn't have live streaming video

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#85

Post by rando444 »

A clever person could defeat this entire system in a day.

If you look at the graph, currently we're talking about a fluctuation of about 7 devices.

All you'd have to do is set up a handful of devices (or emulate them and spoof the GPS).. download some sketchy apps, or look for apps that have ties to this company, to bump the location information up. Then turn the devices on or off, so that there's never any change.

If I was the oil company I'd probably set up a shell company to buy the data feed as well so I could get it perfect.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#86

Post by ah- »

azernik wrote: post #71
darksaints wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The target firm had a number in their name, kinda like a16z or Office365. The attacking quant knew the target was using iceberg orders which split up and randomize parts of large orders. Attacking quant took a guess at an RNG seed by guessing they used the number in the target firm's name, and then somehow fit the resulting random number stream to order chunk sizes, and was able to confirm they used that number as a…

That... sounds amateurish. Everyone just uses a hardware RNG for random number seeds.

Well it's nice for testing to have something repeatable. But still sounds like an urban legend.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#87

Post by dchichkov »

AznHisoka wrote: post #54
tantalor wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8. Indicted for fraud

don't think this is fraud. Oil refineries aren't lying about their oil production to the general public. It's the hedge funds' fault for relying on their location data.

It is market manipulation. In the United States it is prohibited under Section 9(a)(2) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_manipulation

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#88

Post by dchichkov »

sansnomme wrote: post #60
tantalor wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parts between "fake" and "profit".

It's no different than beating an opponent's bot in HFT

It is actually illegal to beat an opponent's bot in HFT. It is regulated. One is not supposed to release a strategy on the market, which goal is "to beat an opponent's bot". There've been precedents of that (i.e. bot of a pension fund figured out and beaten by algorithmic trading company bot) and the resulting trades were reversed, fines imposed by regulators.

Source. 4 years of R&D at HFT company that traded around $10^10 during that time :)

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#89

Post by DontGiveTwoFlux »

darkpuma wrote: post #47
sevensor wrote: post #15

I've heard from a friend who used to work in Houston refineries, that it's not unusual for refinery workers (who do carry mobile phones, by the way) to call their brokers immediately when they hear an explosion or see an unexpected plume of smoke from a neighboring refinery. Also smoking on the job is apparently much more common at refineries than I would have expected. Edit: this comment reflects the state of the in…

I once read an argument (maybe here on HN, I'm not sure) that if insider trading were legal, Enron wouldn't have taken anybody by surprise. I'm not sure I buy the argument that it should consequently be legal, but it's an interesting idea.

On the other hand, consider how rare the Enron case seems to be. Since it's implosion, how many other companies were based on total fraud? Theranos is all that comes to mind and it wasn't even public.

It seems like the system mostly prevents massive Enron style fraud.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#90

Post by stcredzero »

etskinner wrote: post #81
stcredzero wrote: post #30

I've envisioned an application like the following for construction sites and industrial installations: There would be a "supervisor" app with a schematic 3D model of the site, with dots or tags indicating the location of smartphones of workers, who have installed a satellite app. There would be messaging between the satellite apps and the supervisor app, and a worker with a satellite app could stream video or post pi…

You're loosely describing BIM (Building information modeling)[1], but you definitely bring up some novel points that aren't covered by existing BIM softwares, to my knowledge. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_information_modeling

you definitely bring up some novel points that aren't covered by existing BIM softwares, to my knowledge

What exactly are those, might I ask?

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