Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#251

Post by krapp » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

geggam wrote: post #249

krapp wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All governments, regardless of their nature, all civil societies and all bodies of law, from the hardest fascist dictatorships to the freest democracies, claim legitimacy by and execute enforcement through a monopoly on violence. Pretending the US is any different in this regard is silly.

govt in the US does not have a monopoly on violence... they want you to think they do ;)

I don't think you understand what the monopoly on violence actually is.

It doesn't mean the government is the only agent capable of committing violence, rather, that the government determines what forms of violence, and under what circumstances, are legal, and that the enforcement of laws and contracts are always backed up by an implicit threat of violence through incarceration or worse.

The Second Amendment being legal doctrine adopted by the government is an example of that monopoly being extended to the people - yet the same government that passed the Second Amendment also put down Shay's Rebellion. That's the monopoly on violence.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#252

Post by ameister14 » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 5:53 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #63

12298765 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've also been around for longer than anyone else with a modern democracy, and our goal is longevity of a sustainable relationship between the people and their government. We have some issues in our country right now, but I have a good feeling we'll get them worked out in the next few years. Many of our laws and rights are in place not for short term feelings about safety between people and police, but for long term…

> We've also been around for longer than anyone else with a modern democracy No, we haven't. In fact, we copied it largely from the UK. (We didn't like the fact that as a colony we didn't get representation in the national legislature or the full range of rights citizens in the UK itself had, but, hey, the US does the same thing. Initially, and still partially, even to it's capital district . We've got the oldest sur…

I'd argue that the UK wasn't a modern democracy until the Parliament Acts allowed for the Commons to override the House of Lords.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#253

Post by coolspot » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 5:56 PM UTC

lsiebert wrote: post #84

yingw787 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that "high mobility across borders" is an assumption based on existing trade regulations. From recent developments it's clear countries can and do force companies to do things they don't want, and companies will do it because they can't or won't lose access to consumers in those markets. For example, Apple has begun storing Russian user data in Russia in compliance with Russian data storage laws ( https://ven…

The Trump Administration also passed a law that affects companies that store data overseas so that they can get that data, after big companies fought such subpoenas.

The case[0] started on Obama watch though.

What happens now is that after many appeals it goes to the supreme court.

[0] - https://mashable.com/2014/06/12/microsoft-u-s-government-dat...

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#254

Post by coolspot » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

chupasaurus wrote: post #42

mc32 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can do what Russia does and some of Europe do and require AU citizen data remain in AU.

Heard of FAANG minus Amazon (they don't work here) datacenters in Russia? There is none, as well as data storages here. Everyone gives 0f about this law, only huge targets have fines of ~$1M yearly.

Apple - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-04/apple-fil...

Twitter - https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/19/twitter-is-reviewing-wheth...

Netflix doesn't operate in Russia. Google, Facebook, Twitter will eventually comply, as they do in China.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#255

Post by KorematsuFred » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 6:11 PM UTC

mastazi wrote: post #51

KorematsuFred wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this true ? There is no way I am hiring an Australian citizen then.

"For example, Australia’s law enforcement could compel Apple to provide access to a customer’s iPhone and all communications made on it without the user’s awareness or consent. An engineer involved would, in theory, be unable to tell their boss about this, or risk a jail sentence." Source: Sydney Morning Herald https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/dangerous-o... That would be a 5-year jail sentence appare…

Do you know what exactly constitutes a backdoor and how exactly Australian government "orders" their citizen to add this backdoor ?

I less worried about an individual writing backdoor code and more worried about sabotage by giving private keys to government, leaking sensitive data etc. while these are not strictly backdoors in technical sense I guess government can put such things under that broad category.

Another question I have in my mind is whether it would be legal to post "Australian citizens may not apply for this job" under the job posting in USA. Clearly there is a good reason to believe an Australian citizen is not good enough for tech jobs given that he comes with this baggage.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#256

Post by viraptor » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 6:22 PM UTC

village-idiot wrote: post #213

viraptor wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not cheaper than getting sued for discrimination. Which would be easily proven in many cases, seeing how many people are more afraid of a potential issue with another country's intelligence agencies then of publicly posting about their plans to violate their own employment laws.

You can’t be sued for discrimination based on the employees location, which is actually the issue at stake here. Citizenship doesn’t appear to be relevant.

Parent posts are about citizenship, not location. Literally "not hire Australians".

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#257

Post by village-idiot » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 7:30 PM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #256

village-idiot wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t be sued for discrimination based on the employees location, which is actually the issue at stake here. Citizenship doesn’t appear to be relevant.

Parent posts are about citizenship, not location. Literally "not hire Australians".

Later posts make it clear the law is actually about country, not citizenship. Non-citizen residents of Australia have the same risk factor as citizens.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#258

Post by balabaster » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

mastazi wrote: post #30

I have migrated to Australia many years ago and I have recently become eligible to become a citizen. However I’ve heard stories of tech companies refusing to hire Australians because of the AA Bill, so I’m holding it off for now. The problem seems to be the provision that a tech worker can be coerced by the Australian Government into creating a backdoor, and they are not authorised to disclose it to their employer. I…

So, how exactly would anyone get a back door past code review? There are practices and processes that make this infeasible regardless of the Australian Government's belief they can coerce anyone.

Every company I've felt have been worth working for in the past 10 years have had rigorous code review practices that would obstruct my ability to integrate any code without oversight.

So... how?

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#259

Post by int_19h » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 8:18 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #226

threatofrain wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's the splitting of government power that secures people's rights, not the fact that the Constitution needs many votes to amend. Because someone still has to enforce the Constitution; of course it's going to be the government. Your rights are just words if the government doesn't care.

> I think it's the splitting of government power that secures people's rights [...] Your rights are just words if the government doesn't care. And how did that go with Trump-GOP in the White House and the House-GOP and Senate-GOP? See also Kavanaugh and the ignoring/suppression of Garland.

The courts did block a bunch of stuff coming from this administration.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#260

Post by balabaster » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 8:24 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #134

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Australian Government does not like whistleblowers: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-28/witness-k-and-bernard... I can't stress enough the potential for harm in any attempt to bypass various laws. The Australian Government even refused to allow independent Medical Doctors into their off-shore immigration detention centres for fear of the detention conditions being made public. Australia did nothing to even con…

Australia's public image of being a "larrikin" place - all beer on the beach and shrimp on the barbie, is at odds with its incredibly authoritarian attitudes. I'm always amazed at Aussie enthusiasm for the "smack of firm government" and their hatred of anyone breaking the rules.

The thing that's most odd about this is if you consider the history of the cause of settlement of Australia... the first settlers weren't exactly renowned for following the rules... that's why they were there in the first place.

Irony at its finest.