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Facebook Accused by HUD of Housing Bias Over Use of Targeted Ads

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Re: Facebook Accused by HUD of Housing Bias Over Use of Targeted Ads

#41

There's sometimes a lot of chatter here on HN about a liberal arts education being worthless. I have to wonder if more tech employees had taken classes in ethics, philosophy, and other "soft" subjects, if people in the industry would have a better capacity to make decisions that get their companies in trouble less often. Or at least be able to explain to their superiors why a particular business decision is bad.

>> There's sometimes a lot of chatter here on HN about a liberal arts education being worthless. Plenty of people here will argue that you shouldn't take out $80k in student loans to get a liberal arts degree. Worthelss in a ROI sense But there are a large amount of people here with pretty liberal views. So they certain don't disagree with the viewpoint.

Full disclosure: I have a liberal arts degree.

When I was looking at colleges, I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. In high school, I really hated science and math classes. Years later I realized that I actually didn't but the single math teacher I had for four years of high school (it was a small school, I just had bad luck with what teachers were assigned to the classes I took). If I had gone to college with the goal of a career that I thought I would have been suited for, I probably would be doing something much different.

I picked a school that offered me the opportunity to study a broad range of topics and had a curriculum based in seminars & discussion. Rather than learning technical subject or a trade, I learned how to accomplish tasks independently. What I feel I got were the skills to teach myself anything. Sure I'd need to learn harder career based skills, but I knew how to best teach myself something IMO, that's no different than a career paths that requires additional schooling to get a job. Looking back, I think it's ridiculous that we ask 16-18 year olds to make decisions about their careers.

Re: Facebook Accused by HUD of Housing Bias Over Use of Targeted Ads

#42

There's sometimes a lot of chatter here on HN about a liberal arts education being worthless. I have to wonder if more tech employees had taken classes in ethics, philosophy, and other "soft" subjects, if people in the industry would have a better capacity to make decisions that get their companies in trouble less often. Or at least be able to explain to their superiors why a particular business decision is bad.

Hate to break it to you, buddy, but the liberal arts kids grew up to work in online advertising too. I know, I worked on a targeted ads team with loads of them.

Re: Facebook Accused by HUD of Housing Bias Over Use of Targeted Ads

#43
post #27
post #10

I am not sure I understand the way Fair Housing Act is enforced. Facebook allows ads targeting. This is how it earns money. Apparently some people decided that they want to advertise houses to white Christians population, which is illegal in the USA - shouldn't be HUD after those who configured such criteria, not Facebook? Facebook provided only a tool. Nobody is after hardware store because a hammer bought there was…

42 U.S. Code § 3604. ...it shall be unlawful— (c) To make, print, or publish, or cause to be made, printed, or published any notice, statement, or advertisement, with respect to the sale or rental of a dwelling that indicates any preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap,familial status, or national origin, or an intention to make any such preference, limitation, or discr…

None of which is actually alleged. The allegation is that FB allowed ad targeting, not that they allowed ads that "indicated a preference... or an intention to make any such preference". It's classic regulatory overreach over the course of 50 years, from disallowing ads that explicitly forbid blacks, to forbidding advertising in venues that haven't paid their diversity tax.

Re: Facebook Accused by HUD of Housing Bias Over Use of Targeted Ads

#44
post #10

I am not sure I understand the way Fair Housing Act is enforced. Facebook allows ads targeting. This is how it earns money. Apparently some people decided that they want to advertise houses to white Christians population, which is illegal in the USA - shouldn't be HUD after those who configured such criteria, not Facebook? Facebook provided only a tool. Nobody is after hardware store because a hammer bought there was…

>Nobody is after hardware store because a hammer bought there was used to kill someone.

s/hammer/gun/ and you'll find some who are. Not agreeing or disagreeing, only raising the point that some people do seem to judge different tools by different standards based on some criteria that is not immediately visible/available to me.

Re: Facebook Accused by HUD of Housing Bias Over Use of Targeted Ads

#45
post #10

I am not sure I understand the way Fair Housing Act is enforced. Facebook allows ads targeting. This is how it earns money. Apparently some people decided that they want to advertise houses to white Christians population, which is illegal in the USA - shouldn't be HUD after those who configured such criteria, not Facebook? Facebook provided only a tool. Nobody is after hardware store because a hammer bought there was…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook Accused by HUD of Housing Bias Over Use of Targeted Ads

#46

We have regulations on the books that are there as a result of 100 years of painful human experience. Wave a computer screen in someone's face and all of a sudden it's a different plane of existence and some people feel like these laws don't apply. I'm glad to see there is finally being some push back.

> some people feel like these laws don't apply

That's catchy, but doesn't address the crucial question of which people should be held accountable for using a tool in a discriminatory way. You could argue that the publisher bears some or all of that responsibility, and I'd be fine with that, but shouldn't the advertisers bear some too? Why is HUD only going after Facebook and not them? Hint: the advertisers don't have all of that juicy user data.

Re: Facebook Accused by HUD of Housing Bias Over Use of Targeted Ads

#47
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> There's sometimes a lot of chatter here on HN about a liberal arts education being worthless. Plenty of people here will argue that you shouldn't take out $80k in student loans to get a liberal arts degree. Worthelss in a ROI sense But there are a large amount of people here with pretty liberal views. So they certain don't disagree with the viewpoint.

Full disclosure: I have a liberal arts degree. When I was looking at colleges, I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. In high school, I really hated science and math classes. Years later I realized that I actually didn't but the single math teacher I had for four years of high school (it was a small school, I just had bad luck with what teachers were assigned to the classes I took). If…

>Looking back, I think it's ridiculous that we ask 16-18 year olds to make decisions about their careers.

And just how far do you think extended adolescence should last? People have to start transitioning into adulthood and preparing for career and life at some point, even if they aren't fully mature and ready for it.

Re: Facebook Accused by HUD of Housing Bias Over Use of Targeted Ads

#48

We have regulations on the books that are there as a result of 100 years of painful human experience. Wave a computer screen in someone's face and all of a sudden it's a different plane of existence and some people feel like these laws don't apply. I'm glad to see there is finally being some push back.

I can totally see how this wasn't anything malicious and just done out of pure ignorance of the law. That said, I would expect this out of a small startup; not a massive corporation. This is actually where I can see the argument for increases in diversity as I can see how a homogeneous group of people being completely ignorant of the ramifications of this.

Re: Facebook Accused by HUD of Housing Bias Over Use of Targeted Ads

#49
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

42 U.S. Code § 3604. ...it shall be unlawful— (c) To make, print, or publish, or cause to be made, printed, or published any notice, statement, or advertisement, with respect to the sale or rental of a dwelling that indicates any preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap,familial status, or national origin, or an intention to make any such preference, limitation, or discr…

None of which is actually alleged. The allegation is that FB allowed ad targeting, not that they allowed ads that "indicated a preference... or an intention to make any such preference". It's classic regulatory overreach over the course of 50 years, from disallowing ads that explicitly forbid blacks, to forbidding advertising in venues that haven't paid their diversity tax.

Targeting an ad specifically to avoid certain races indicates your intention to make such a preference. You're just telling Facebook you don't want those races rather than putting it in the actual ad text.

Re: Facebook Accused by HUD of Housing Bias Over Use of Targeted Ads

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook provided only a tool. Nobody is after hardware store because a hammer bought there was used to kill someone. Your analogy is faulty. People, governments, and law enforcement agencies go after gun stores that sell guns that are used to kill people.

They're actually not allowed to do that unless the sale was illegal.

It depends on how you define "allowed." Gun stores are pressured out of business and zoned into extinction all the time. There's a reason people from Chicago go to Indiana to buy guns.

Also, note the "kill people" phrase in the message you're responding to, and the context of this conversation: committing crimes.

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