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Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

abc.net.au

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Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#131

Post by j16sdiz »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #112
Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but sadly, the law does seem to target people rather than (or in addition to) corporations. https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/bi... > 317C: > For the purposes of this Part, the following table defines: > (a) designated communications provider; > (b) the eligible activitiesof a designated communications provider > A person is a designated communications provider if... ... Actually, there…

> the person provides an electronic service that has one or more end-users in Australia I don’t think this particular clause covers an individual working for a corporation as an employee, as in that case the employee isn’t providing the service the employer is. It reads to me like that clause is intended to cover people who produce software as sole operators of their business, or perhaps a group of people in a busine…

Then the government threaten to sue, many will compel. If the government say they will get 5 year jail for telling anybody, how can they get help?

Remember AU have no bill of rights.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#132

Post by j16sdiz »

bigiain wrote: post #122
chii wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that is an incorrect interpretation of the law. The govt can compell an entity to assist in making encrypted information available. But the entity in question is not the individual employee, but the company who owns the product or service. If you're under the employment (i.e., not a contractor), you can't be an entity, and the employer will definitely know if they've been compelled. But I do agree the law i…

You are making the incorrect assumption that the people writing these laws are not idiots. They don't understand the technology. They don't listen to any of the people who advise them about this technology. They seem only to be listening to the police and other law enforcement crying about "paedophiles and terrorists GOING DARK". The Prime Minister at the time claimed the laws of Australia overrode the laws of mathem…

They don't understand technology. But they know law -- and how to abuse them.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#133

Post by marcus_holmes »

otachack wrote: post #59
mastazi wrote: post #30

I have migrated to Australia many years ago and I have recently become eligible to become a citizen. However I’ve heard stories of tech companies refusing to hire Australians because of the AA Bill, so I’m holding it off for now. The problem seems to be the provision that a tech worker can be coerced by the Australian Government into creating a backdoor, and they are not authorised to disclose it to their employer. I…

There's so much ambiguity in this, though. Can't the complying Australian employee simply nudge his/her coworker and say "hey, patch this later" and then it's just a game of back and forth with the Australian government not having their way in the end?

I've had long discussions with techie friends about this, and none of us can see a way that the government could actually force a dev to do anything in a way that doesn't immediately tip off the rest of the team.

I mean, your code is stored in a shared repo, right? So pushing a commit with the government-mandated changes to the shared repo is "informing others". But not pushing it means it'll never get to Prod.

Most places review code commits routinely, so how is a dev supposed to get their government-mandated changes into Prod without anyone seeing them?

If your Australian co-worker stops pushing their commits to the repo and starts trying to make changes to Prod without going through review, it's also a strong signal that something might be going on here...

In fact, if this legislation posed any kind of threat to your business, then your software development processes are broken and you're vulnerable to a ton of other, more likely, threats.

The legislation was written by a shower of technically-incompetent career politicians, with absolutely zero understanding of (or interest in) how software development works. This is the same mob of idiots of pronounced "the laws of mathematics are all very well, but we're in Australia so we obey Australian laws" when discussing their plans to break cryptography.

It's unenforceable, ridiculous, and will get changed before it ever gets used.

But as a startup tech co-founder dealing with encrypted documents, and an Australian citizen, I'm not planning to launch in Australia until it's fixed, and leaving Australia until it's fixed.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#134

Post by marcus_holmes »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #100
otachack wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's so much ambiguity in this, though. Can't the complying Australian employee simply nudge his/her coworker and say "hey, patch this later" and then it's just a game of back and forth with the Australian government not having their way in the end?

The Australian Government does not like whistleblowers: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-28/witness-k-and-bernard... I can't stress enough the potential for harm in any attempt to bypass various laws. The Australian Government even refused to allow independent Medical Doctors into their off-shore immigration detention centres for fear of the detention conditions being made public. Australia did nothing to even con…

Australia's public image of being a "larrikin" place - all beer on the beach and shrimp on the barbie, is at odds with its incredibly authoritarian attitudes. I'm always amazed at Aussie enthusiasm for the "smack of firm government" and their hatred of anyone breaking the rules.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#135

Post by cyphar »

otachack wrote: post #59
mastazi wrote: post #30

I have migrated to Australia many years ago and I have recently become eligible to become a citizen. However I’ve heard stories of tech companies refusing to hire Australians because of the AA Bill, so I’m holding it off for now. The problem seems to be the provision that a tech worker can be coerced by the Australian Government into creating a backdoor, and they are not authorised to disclose it to their employer. I…

There's so much ambiguity in this, though. Can't the complying Australian employee simply nudge his/her coworker and say "hey, patch this later" and then it's just a game of back and forth with the Australian government not having their way in the end?

Unauthorised disclosure of information about a notice (or gained from a notice) is punishable with 5 years imprisonment -- which means that if you're suspected of being a whistleblower they can use this new legislation against you too (anything punishable with over 3 years imprisonment can be investigated in this fashion).

I wouldn't risk it. There are ways to legally provide aggregated information about the number of notices received in a 6-month period.

Also, talk to your representative and explain your concerns and push for it to be scrapped (though when I talked to the Labor senators' staffers they brushed me off and said that I wasn't interested in being informed when I disagreed with their party line). Federal elections are coming up, they're more likely to at least pretend to listen to you.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#137

Post by nradov »

dragonwriter wrote: post #63
12298765 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've also been around for longer than anyone else with a modern democracy, and our goal is longevity of a sustainable relationship between the people and their government. We have some issues in our country right now, but I have a good feeling we'll get them worked out in the next few years. Many of our laws and rights are in place not for short term feelings about safety between people and police, but for long term…

> We've also been around for longer than anyone else with a modern democracy No, we haven't. In fact, we copied it largely from the UK. (We didn't like the fact that as a colony we didn't get representation in the national legislature or the full range of rights citizens in the UK itself had, but, hey, the US does the same thing. Initially, and still partially, even to it's capital district . We've got the oldest sur…

When the US Constitution was adopted the UK monarch still had enough power that it couldn't reasonably be considered a democracy. The exact point when the UK became a modern democracy is open to debate as power gradually devolved from the monarch to Parliament, but US democracy has absolutely been around longer. There's no legitimate historical debate on that.

And very little of the US governmental system was copied from the UK. A parliamentary system is just totally different from what we have.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#138

Post by [deleted] »

mastazi wrote: post #51
KorematsuFred wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this true ? There is no way I am hiring an Australian citizen then.

"For example, Australia’s law enforcement could compel Apple to provide access to a customer’s iPhone and all communications made on it without the user’s awareness or consent. An engineer involved would, in theory, be unable to tell their boss about this, or risk a jail sentence." Source: Sydney Morning Herald https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/dangerous-o... That would be a 5-year jail sentence appare…

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#139

Post by maldeh »

ENGNR wrote: post #119
philliphaydon wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So developer discusses with his boss. Developer A adds back door. Developer B then patches back door. Boss fires developer A. Developer A then uses this TAR crap to sue government for forcing him to do something and lose his job. I can’t see the government being able to defend itself. We elect the government to serve the people and the decisions of the government are negatively impacting the people no matter which wa…

'developer discusses with his boss' => that's 5 years prison right there, not joking It's 5 for not doing it and 5 for telling anyone, 10 for both

Assuming it could be proven, surely?

And there have to be limitations as to how far an individual could go as to subterfuge, so if your company enforces a 2-person code review and there aren't other authorized Australian nationals at hand, you could point at process preventing you from doing so without others' knowledge (how naive this defense is, I have no idea)

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#140

Post by roganartu »

microcolonel wrote: post #91
jacques_chester wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on your criteria. But it's a wealthy country with a high standard of living, relatively safe and stable, with well-established democratic and legal systems, has relatively low corruption, safety nets for health and welfare, subsidised education and if you avoid the crocodiles it can be very pleasant in parts.

> well-established democratic and legal systems Given the topic at hand, this doesn't seem like a distinct strength of Australia, unless you're coming from a despotic regime or recently New Zealand.

I think it's important to have some context here though. I can't speak for the parent commenter, but I am Australian and how I interpreted it was that our democratic system is reasonably mature, functional, and relatively free from large scale corruption.

I think the last point is the big one. Political lobbying, while still a thing, isn't as rampant as in the US for example. Bad power-grab legislation like the bill being discussed still happen, as do bad laws as a result of general incompetence, but in my experience there are far less laws that happen as a result of corporate lobbying.

A good example is the Australian tax system. There is a government provided website for filing your individual income tax return. For the vast majority of people it is prefilled, takes about 5 mins, and it's also free for everyone. Contrast this with the US where companies like Intuit lobby specifically to keep the tax code complex and to require returns prepared online be submitted through one of them so they can collect their fees.

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