Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system • Hacker News Board

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#321

Post by dang » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

not_kurt_godel wrote: post #250

NoblePublius wrote: post #247

I don’t see how this is functionally different than having your wages garnished by a court order. Deadbeat dads are subject to the same financial scrutiny in the US. I get the feeling now that much of the criticism of this system is just Western media clickbait.

[flagged]

Your last sentence breaks the site guideline against insinuations of astroturfing (and spying or shilling and all the rest of it). Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? If anyone wants further explanation, there is plenty at the links here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19496892.

Also, please don't use the tired trope of "whataboutism" on HN. It contains no information, and is a form of name-calling that breaks the site guidelines as well. More on that: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

Your comment would be fine without that last sentence.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#322

Post by anoncake » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #307

yepguy wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal rights are things that society decides you're entitled to. Natural rights are basically theological in origin. Violating them transgresses the natural law regardless of what society decides (or even whether society exists, I guess). It seems you're only considering legal rights, possibly because natural rights are difficult to justify from a secular perspective.

I'm not actually trying to distinguish at all -- the OP spoke of rights stemming from nature, and, as you said, any you'd describe as such are basically theological in nature. The thought experiment I'd run is, just like the one of science vs religion: start from scratch, look for the rights that every society has in common. Property? Nope. Freedom of speech, association, whatever? Nope. The one I think might be univ…

Serfs had to ask their lord for permission to marry.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#323

Post by not_kurt_godel » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #321

not_kurt_godel wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Your last sentence breaks the site guideline against insinuations of astroturfing (and spying or shilling and all the rest of it). Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? If anyone wants further explanation, there is plenty at the links here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19496892 . Also, please don't use the tired trope of "whataboutis…

Apologies for breaking the guidelines. I admit the insinuation wasn't entirely appropriate. I regularly encounter obvious pro-China astroturfing on the Internet and I jumped to a premature conclusion/attack in this case.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#324

Post by caprese » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 5:47 PM UTC

powerapple wrote: post #311

caprese wrote: post #38

> If he had money to buy an airline ticket, they told the South China Morning Post, he should use it to repay what he owed. This line of thinking spans cultures and completely ignores the velocity or time value of money. It is extremely counterproductive and doesn't factor in what someone is trying to do. This punitive approach to all forms of spending and consumption hampers the productivity of nations. A simplistic…

Apparently then a person found out he couldn't fly in airport, he paid back the money straightaway from his phone. True story.

got to know your culture then

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#325

Post by dang » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 6:49 PM UTC

not_kurt_godel wrote: post #323

dang wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last sentence breaks the site guideline against insinuations of astroturfing (and spying or shilling and all the rest of it). Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? If anyone wants further explanation, there is plenty at the links here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19496892 . Also, please don't use the tired trope of "whataboutis…

Apologies for breaking the guidelines. I admit the insinuation wasn't entirely appropriate. I regularly encounter obvious pro-China astroturfing on the Internet and I jumped to a premature conclusion/attack in this case.

I appreciate the response. We have to be really cautious about this, because the cost of getting it wrong is so high, both to the community and to anyone who is unfairly accused. If you look at the thread at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19401961 you'll see an example of this.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#326

Post by seniorivn » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 8:59 PM UTC

wjmao88 wrote: post #239

frotak wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you end up on the list for being sued over the money you owe You mean like the summary judgments that can be leveled against debtors in the US by debt collection agencies... And which...ding your credit score. Which makes it harder to get credit...secure a loan...(sometimes) get housing...(sometimes) get a job Versus...institutional segregation and denial of services by the government. Definitely not even in the sa…

No, I mean like how in the US the creditor can get the court to let them take your property (except certain exempt things like your primary residence) and garnish your wages.

Wouldn't you agree that court in us and in china are two completely different things?

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#327

Post by Frondo » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 10:52 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #187

Frondo wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean this in a trollish way, but can you show me a "rights" molecule? Or explain what it would mean for rights to exist outside of a society?

Has the whole "inalienable rights" thing passed you by - given we are talking about the USA

Yes, and I'm of the position that there is no such thing as an inalienable right; that that too is a human invention and that that too is entirely up to people to defend. I also think this is a defensible position, hence my request to see the "rights molecule".

That isn't to say I don't think certain rights should be held as universal, or that some aren't worth dying for, I certainly do.

I just think there isn't a facet of human society that is not, in fact, ultimately a human invention (within the constraints of the pressures evolution has wired into our brains, like proscriptions on incest.)

And, frankly, we should all be proud of what we can build, as a species.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#328

Post by qlk1123 » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 12:50 AM UTC

powerapple wrote: post #308

qlk1123 wrote: post #196

Rumor has had it that there is a social credit system in China, and now this report reveals one part of it, which I believe is also just one small piece in the whole mass surveillance puzzle. As a Taiwanese, I don't know how the system works, nor can I feel the same as what Chinese citizens under that surveillance feel. However I can certainly say that, there must be an another part of the system that monitors "polit…

"..... I don't know how it works ..... however, I can certainly say that , there must be ....." you lost me there.

Just tried to be honest, but sure I should have put that in another way. Thanks for the feedback anyway.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#329

Post by alanwong » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 4:44 AM UTC

powerapple wrote: post #310

alanwong wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, as demonstrated in the article, high speed train isn’t always a luxury. And the punishment can have the opposite effect of making people to pay their debts.

On the contrary, the system works really well. Most people pay off their debts with money come magically when they found out they couldn't fly.

Fair enough.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#330

Post by dis-sys » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 5:33 AM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #319

dis-sys wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are defending those offenders with a passion by completely ignoring the real victims here. When those "laolai" refuse to pay their debts when they have the resources to do so, rather than defending for those "laolai", how about show some decency by thinking about the real life situations of the actual victims who couldn't get their money back from those "laolai" even after court orders? With 1.4 billion people, s…

At least in America, the vast majority of the time, creditors are huge companies and debtors are individuals who happened to fall on hard times or make financial decisions that didn't pan out. Therefore it's much, much worse when a debtor is unjustly punished than when a creditor unjustly goes unpaid. It's the difference between completely ruining an individual's life, and removing a meaninglessly small amount of mon…

> Are creditors in China commonly non-rich individuals? Are micro-loans a significant portion of what's being talked about here? I'm asking this as a serious question.

From what I saw/met, most of those debts happened between average individuals. That is how the list end up having millions of cases.

I randomly checked a few cases on that list, most of time, the amount of debts are a few thousand USD. It is not some micro-loans for average guys on streets, it is close to one year of their wage.