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Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

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Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#271

Post by powerapple »

gbear605 wrote: post #43
throwaway28031 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the fear of the social credit system. It doesn't seem too different from the American credit scoring system. They are both systems designed by the elites to shape the behavior of commoners. Why do I have to regularly use a credit card to prove that I am credit worthy, so that I can get a bank loan to buy a house?

Because the bank wants assurance that you’re not going to go bankrupt or just not pay it back, and reliably paying off your credit card is a proxy for that. Whereas you taking a high speed train is not a risk, so blocking that is just punishment.

These people do not want to repay their debts, mostly. And they have money, properties they don't declare. It is a solution to solve problems in China, not problems in US.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#272

Post by oska »

alanwong wrote: post #267
dis-sys wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what mentioned in your article has nothing to do with the social credit system. as already mentioned in your own article, it is all about the "laolai" list maintained by courts. This system has been there for over a decade or longer, way earlier the title-bait so called "social credit system". To give you a few examples - [1][2] are news articles discussing the exact same "laolai" list almost 10 years ago. [1] https:…

Debt-related blacklists have been around before China's cabinet announced its intention to set up a nation-wide social credit system by 2020, but they ARE part of the social credit system. They're not exclusionary.

Just a remark from someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight: I found your dogmatic refutations above using all caps IS & ARE not particularly confidence inspiring nor terribly professional.

Would not have made this remark about an ordinary commenter but I would expect better from an editor.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#273

Post by powerapple »

andreilys wrote: post #48

Anytime a criticism of China's social credit score is brought up, there's always a "yeah but US credit score", yet I still don't understand how the two are even in the same ballpark. The social credit score in China is far more invasive and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores. To compare the two is disingenuous and reaks of whataboutism

Credit score is worse. When people need to borrow money to lift them above the ground, they are forbidden to have their life changed. If I had a failure business, I don't mind travel on slower trains and take not so comfortable journeys effort to get my business back. But not being able to borrow money is a death penalty worse than banning on 5-star hotels and high-speed rails.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#274

Post by powerapple »

Cookingboy wrote: post #116
andreilys wrote: post #48

Anytime a criticism of China's social credit score is brought up, there's always a "yeah but US credit score", yet I still don't understand how the two are even in the same ballpark. The social credit score in China is far more invasive and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores. To compare the two is disingenuous and reaks of whataboutism

>and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores. Citation Needed. As far as I know that's a possible, but still speculated feature.

As a general risk management practice, say, if you are associated with a low score post code, your insurance cost will go up and may affect your credit score. It is as simple as that. If all your friends are criminals, I am sorry that you might be on the watch list as well.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#275

Post by alanwong »

jpatokal wrote: post #253
wjmao88 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese government advertises that system as one based on all kinds of activity. Political/religious are just examples since those are usually the focal points in matters like these. The system is claimed to be backed by big data, and sure you can say there is no numerical score but come on.

Again, there is no one "system". The system discussed here, 失信人名单, has nothing to do with social networks, it's operated by the courts. The video discussed below goes into this in detail, discussing what does exist, what experiments there are, and where the researcher thinks China is heading. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18771384

Thanks for this. Alarmist reports of a Black Mirror style social credit system in China have really distorted many people's understanding of the reality of the system, which, to begin with, isn't just one thing.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#276

Post by Teknoman117 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #91
andreilys wrote: post #48

Anytime a criticism of China's social credit score is brought up, there's always a "yeah but US credit score", yet I still don't understand how the two are even in the same ballpark. The social credit score in China is far more invasive and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores. To compare the two is disingenuous and reaks of whataboutism

> The social credit score in China is far more invasive and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores. Social network -influenced credit scores are becoming common internationally, including by US lenders, but do not appear to be used yet by the major credit reporting agencies in the US due to uncertainty over status under the Fair Credit Reporting Act (just a few of many articles):…

Wow. I hadn't heard that credit companies were seriously looking into this in the US. Very scary.

What about all those high school friends we still have on Facebook who never did anything with their lives?

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#277

Post by Teknoman117 »

chessturk wrote: post #211
gowld wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's China. It's a tool for social control and keeping the Communist Party billionaires in power.

[flagged]

The joke goes - When the rest of the world took Orwell's 1984 as a warning, China used it as a model.

However, that joke really isn't true, because all the countries took it as a model, it's just that China seems to be somewhat proud of that fact, whereas the rest tried to do it covertly.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#278

Post by int_19h »

dgzl wrote: post #195
massivecali wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". You can lose your license for all kinds of 'unfair' reasons that do not make sense, and I agree it's heavy handed to include student loan debt, but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive (after passing proper license tests), then this downward progression will continue. In California you can't even registe…

> but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive I guess we're not applying the tenth amendment here? As in, we have rights not explicitly enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

The Tenth says that the rights are "reserved to the states or to the people". A state suspending your driver license would simply claim that it is their right to do so.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#279

Post by Legogris »

alanwong wrote: post #214
Legogris wrote: post #37

Not at all defending the system here, but the article exaggerates quite a bit when talking about the trains. > In China, only those who cannot afford the high-speed train take the slow train. I have taken a similar train from Shanghai to Shenyang, it was also a bit north of 30 hours. Sure, it was not very clean and as everywhere you may encounter unconventional people but in general it's not at all the deadbeat carav…

OP and Inkstone editor here. The slow train certainly isn't a deadbeat caravan, and I don't think the article suggests that. But it is unusual for a businessman to take this train instead of the high-speed options.

Thanks for the reply and for doing an article on this.

Of course most businessmen would almost always take the high-speed option, but that is the case in Europe too. I did meet and talk to a man who owned a factory on the train, though, and I get the impression that middle-class people and students will still take it for trips in their free-time. Not necessarily because they can't afford other options and I think it's just untrue that "only those who cannot afford the high-speed train take the slow train". If that had been a quote by the subject, that is one thing, but here it's stated as fact.

Don't you think there's more to the story than that his associates deduced his laolai status just by which train he came by?

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#280

Post by Legogris »

chessturk wrote: post #210
Legogris wrote: post #37

Not at all defending the system here, but the article exaggerates quite a bit when talking about the trains. > In China, only those who cannot afford the high-speed train take the slow train. I have taken a similar train from Shanghai to Shenyang, it was also a bit north of 30 hours. Sure, it was not very clean and as everywhere you may encounter unconventional people but in general it's not at all the deadbeat carav…

Can I ask how recent that was? I'm a total outsider, but I've heard China's changed like crazy.

This was two years ago.
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