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Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

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Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#91

Post by dragonwriter »

andreilys wrote: post #48

Anytime a criticism of China's social credit score is brought up, there's always a "yeah but US credit score", yet I still don't understand how the two are even in the same ballpark. The social credit score in China is far more invasive and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores. To compare the two is disingenuous and reaks of whataboutism

> The social credit score in China is far more invasive and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores.

Social network-influenced credit scores are becoming common internationally, including by US lenders, but do not appear to be used yet by the major credit reporting agencies in the US due to uncertainty over status under the Fair Credit Reporting Act (just a few of many articles):

https://www.badcredit.org/consequences-using-social-network-...

https://www.creditinfocenter.com/creditreports/scoring/socia...

https://qz.com/1276781/algorithms-are-making-the-same-mistak...

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#92

Post by ceejayoz »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #82
vetrom wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit score bureaus. A surprising array of services and accessibility is tied to the credit score.

Yes, but only your ability to repay loans is considered by those, not you ur social behavior or connections.

For now.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#93

Post by headcanon »

lisper wrote: post #47
massivecali wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". You can lose your license for all kinds of 'unfair' reasons that do not make sense, and I agree it's heavy handed to include student loan debt, but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive (after passing proper license tests), then this downward progression will continue. In California you can't even registe…

Sure, but none of that changes the fact that suspending someone's driving privilege as a punishment for failing to pay a debt is incredibly stupid and counterproductive.

I was once sitting in a courtroom for something unrelated and saw a 19 year old kid go to jail for 3 months for not paying child support. Not sure how he's going to pay it back in there, but if all you have is a hammer...

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#94

Post by blotter_paper »

thanksDr wrote: post #16
mamon wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)? "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Disgusting that people would downvote this! If we allow this to become normal, we'll regret it.

This mantra can be used to attack anybody for any reason, as long as you call them "evil." It's a road you can go down, but I wouldn't.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#95

Post by ncallaway »

pdonis wrote: post #72
btrettel wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bikes don't go 60 miles an hour, which is necessary for some individuals who work an hour or more from their residence. And no, people don't do that sort of thing because they enjoy it. They do it because they have to. Please don't ruin people's lives with your ideas. Reread my post, as I don't think you're responding to what I wrote. I don't advocate taking away someone's license because of debts, which I believe…

First you said it "could help", then you said it was "net counterproductive". Which is it?

This line of thinking that someone owes you a single sweeping opinion seems to reject any form of nuance that could exist in the world.

Maybe somethings could help sometimes and are net counterproductive other times.

Maybe some ideas could help in one aspect but are net counterproductive when considered as a whole.

I didn't read a contradiction in the parent post.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#96

Post by Waterluvian »

massivecali wrote: post #45
AmVess wrote: post #32

USA is heading down this road, too. 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. This is ass backwards and destructive thinking. I am certain this is just the start of greater restrictions on the unfortunate.

As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". You can lose your license for all kinds of 'unfair' reasons that do not make sense, and I agree it's heavy handed to include student loan debt, but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive (after passing proper license tests), then this downward progression will continue. In California you can't even registe…

It's a privilege sure. Except the US is really good at building dysfunctional cities that require a car to live.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#97

Post by wwweston »

lisper wrote: post #47
massivecali wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". You can lose your license for all kinds of 'unfair' reasons that do not make sense, and I agree it's heavy handed to include student loan debt, but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive (after passing proper license tests), then this downward progression will continue. In California you can't even registe…

Sure, but none of that changes the fact that suspending someone's driving privilege as a punishment for failing to pay a debt is incredibly stupid and counterproductive.

That's if you're oriented on policy goals like getting the debt where it's owed by providing consequences that aren't crippling and keeping the individual who owes it in the best position to actually repay.

There are people who think in very different terms, where the primary goal is protecting a moral norm they have in mind, and the focus (possibly even "obsession") is going to be doing that by exacting a punishment as a disincentive and example. Taking away a privilege is an obvious choice. Whether it's related is unimportant; what's important is whether it hurts. If the cascading effects are considered at all to someone who thinks like this (and I want to stress here that involves a level of analysis that may be second nature for you but is quite likely actually a stretch for many of the people I'm talking about here) then those cascading effects may well be considered good: the fact of making a debt less likely to be repaid is secondary to making it harder for the subject deserving of the punishment. The pain is the point.

Now, you might respond "is there evidence that this kind of punitive approach actually leads to overall better outcomes?" And that's a very good question, but again, it's the kind of question someone who cautiously approaches the question of punishment with considerations of counterproductivity in mind would ask.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#98

Post by headcanon »

btrettel wrote: post #55
AmVess wrote: post #32

USA is heading down this road, too. 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. This is ass backwards and destructive thinking. I am certain this is just the start of greater restrictions on the unfortunate.

Cyclist here. I'm amazed by how much money people spend on their vehicles. I have an expensive bike (about $1000 new), and aside from perhaps $100-$200 on maintenance and equipment per year, I spend nothing else for daily transportation. It's hard for cars to compete with that on cost. I think suspending someone's drivers' license due to debts could help reduce one's transportation spending. Unfortunately, much of th…

I'm sure it works great in some areas, but its completely unrealistic in others. Try running errands in Metro Detroit on a bike and come back and talk to me.

With that said I would prefer if the municipalities were more bike friendly in the first place. I like driving, but I was certainly happiest when I lived in a different town and could bike to work.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#99

Post by threatofrain »

andreilys wrote: post #48

Anytime a criticism of China's social credit score is brought up, there's always a "yeah but US credit score", yet I still don't understand how the two are even in the same ballpark. The social credit score in China is far more invasive and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores. To compare the two is disingenuous and reaks of whataboutism

If American creditors are materially interested in efficient ways of modelling customers, and so are Chinese creditors, eventually they should converge on technique after having tested and eliminated more superstitious predictors.

Basically, if social network analysis helps creditors, then it will be done unless the state or some external force provides sufficient counter-incentive.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#100

Post by ordu »

gamblor956 wrote: post #71
moosey wrote: post #34

> In order for him to clear his debts, Kong argues, he needs to be able to succeed at his new business – but that is hard to do if prospective partners and customers shun him because of his official status as a “deadbeat.” This is awful. Totally admit it, they shouldn't do it, etc. About the same as being a released felon in the United States. We also allow financial information to be pulled for background checks in…

Not even remotely similar. China's rating system is government-mandated. In the US, the credit rating system is a creature of, and controlled by, the market. The US imposes very weak regulation on the credit ratings companies for individuals, and almost none at all on the credit ratings companies for businesses.

It is a very american thing to say. I mean "it is bad, because it is regulated". Why? I suppose that social credit system of China is abused to make life of political opposition harder, but the article discussed is not about it. It shows case of a failed debtor. And for him it doesn't matter if social credit system is regulated or controlled by the market. What does matter for him is what impact this system has to his life. What opportunities to repaid his debt this social system closes for him?

In some ways US credit system seems worse for me. The only way to get into it is to get a credit. But what if I do not like to pay interest rates? If I'm higly conscious and I can put down my impulses to buy things, to consume for the sake of consumption, to live on pennies while building a capital from scratch? It wouldn't work, because of this system. There are no way to demonstrate your credit reliability and trustworthiness to a system except paying interest rates. At the same time in China a person has non-financial ways to build up her social score. There are a bad sides, of course, like brutal punishments to those, who've hit negative scores, and it completely makes China's system unattractive for me, comparing with the US one.

Seems that China's system is less tolerant for a risky behaviour, while US system just put you on rails of debt and gives you no other way. The latter seems less disgusting for me, but I'm glad that I have not to deal with any. And as outsider for both I really see no big decisive difference between them, they seem for me very similar.

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