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Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

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Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#11

Post by ocdtrekkie »

ada1981 wrote: post #6
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way would you boycott China? Refuse to buy or use products made there? How likely do you think this could scale to an impact that would meaningfully impact China's trade? And as horrible as I think the social credit system is, there's an interesting question, as people who don't live in China, what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)?

I don’t know. I sometimes manufacture physical products. I could state publically that I won’t. I could also not buy products made in China personally. In general we ought to try to change things we don’t like. I can’t imagine the people of China like this system do they?

They do, actually! Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/21/what-do-p...

Presumably a system that promotes good behavior is well liked by people who haven't run afoul of it. And of course, via censorship practices, a very small percentage of Chinese citizens are aware of a lot of reasons they should be concerned about their government.

Russian citizens are also wildly enthusiastic about Vladimir Putin. It's not a safe assumption that people living in countries with authoritarian leaders disapprove of them.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#12

Post by mindslight »

wpdev_63 wrote: post #7
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way would you boycott China? Refuse to buy or use products made there? How likely do you think this could scale to an impact that would meaningfully impact China's trade? And as horrible as I think the social credit system is, there's an interesting question, as people who don't live in China, what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)?

The US is competing with China not just economically but socially as well. If China succeeds in creating a more 'productive' and 'complacent' population with its policies, expect the US government to do the same. Remember the US still has the largest surveillance apparatus in the world. All they would need to do to implement a social credit system is to flip a couple of switches.

Those "switches" don't even need to be flipped by the US Government writ large. Boardroom meetings by "private" companies deciding to integrate ever more of the commercial surveillance infrastructure will suffice.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#13

Post by justaguyhere »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #3
ada1981 wrote: post #2

This system seems inhumane. I’ll consider supporting a boycott of China if it would help.

In what way would you boycott China? Refuse to buy or use products made there? How likely do you think this could scale to an impact that would meaningfully impact China's trade? And as horrible as I think the social credit system is, there's an interesting question, as people who don't live in China, what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)?

In what way would you boycott China?

This doesn't seem that easy - after all, most products in western super markets are made in China. Maybe people can stop traveling to China, but that wouldn't make a difference big enough for the Chinese ruling class to care.

But why restrict this question to China (though this particular article is about China)? Why not Saudi Arabia, for example?

as people who don't live in China, what business it is of ours

Because, if this works, other governments will follow, in no time and likely with Chinese government help. They will "learn" from Chinese government's "experience". Even if you didn't care about the plight of Chinese people, you'd surely care about your own countrymen's freedom? Tech surveillance is more dangerous than anything, because it is easier and cheaper to implement and it can scale, compared to any other system.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#14

Post by function_seven »

pxue wrote: post #5
ada1981 wrote: post #2

This system seems inhumane. I’ll consider supporting a boycott of China if it would help.

i don't think you understand the premises of how one ends up on the bad list. "owing" money means you borrow from secondary lender, using it to buy risky assets. you essentially played with fire and got burned. lots of cases like this where these "businessmen" loses money and then declared bankruptcy, refusing to pay anyone back. sounds a lot like wallstreet doesn't it? are you okay with what they did? this is govern…

I'm not sure what to make of your scare quotes, but none of what you wrote, on its face, sounds wrong to me.

1. If a lender lends me money, they're shouldering the risk that I may not repay the loan. That risk should be priced appropriately.

2. Bankruptcy is a valid concept.

3. What Wall Street did was misjudge the risk of their products (whether intentionally or not). Sounds like what the lenders in your example are doing.

But the government is punishing the risk-takers. Not sure that's a good way to promote entrepreneurship or innovation. The bankruptcy alone should serve as the deterrent (and signal to future lenders)

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#15

Post by thanksDr »

ada1981 wrote: post #6
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way would you boycott China? Refuse to buy or use products made there? How likely do you think this could scale to an impact that would meaningfully impact China's trade? And as horrible as I think the social credit system is, there's an interesting question, as people who don't live in China, what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)?

I don’t know. I sometimes manufacture physical products. I could state publically that I won’t. I could also not buy products made in China personally. In general we ought to try to change things we don’t like. I can’t imagine the people of China like this system do they?

How much do you love the social credit system? Remember, any answer other than "with all my heart" is a ticket to the gulag.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#16

Post by thanksDr »

mamon wrote: post #4
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way would you boycott China? Refuse to buy or use products made there? How likely do you think this could scale to an impact that would meaningfully impact China's trade? And as horrible as I think the social credit system is, there's an interesting question, as people who don't live in China, what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)?

>> what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)? "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Disgusting that people would downvote this!

If we allow this to become normal, we'll regret it.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#17

Post by TimTheTinker »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #11
ada1981 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know. I sometimes manufacture physical products. I could state publically that I won’t. I could also not buy products made in China personally. In general we ought to try to change things we don’t like. I can’t imagine the people of China like this system do they?

They do, actually! Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/21/what-do-p... Presumably a system that promotes good behavior is well liked by people who haven't run afoul of it. And of course, via censorship practices, a very small percentage of Chinese citizens are aware of a lot of reasons they should be concerned about their government. Russian citizens are also wildly enthusiastic about Vladimir Put…

> It's not a safe assumption that people living in countries with authoritarian leaders disapprove of them.

Also see Hitler's popular approval ratings [0] (Godwin's law notwithstanding). In August 1934, roughly 90% of German voters were in favor of the consolidation of the offices of President and Chancellor into a single Leader-Chancellor in the person of Adolf Hitler. Note that number should be taken with a big grain of salt, since there was tremendous social and political pressure to vote that way -- and a threat of repercussions for voting "no".

[0] https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/learning/general...

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#18

Post by darkpuma »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #11
ada1981 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know. I sometimes manufacture physical products. I could state publically that I won’t. I could also not buy products made in China personally. In general we ought to try to change things we don’t like. I can’t imagine the people of China like this system do they?

They do, actually! Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/21/what-do-p... Presumably a system that promotes good behavior is well liked by people who haven't run afoul of it. And of course, via censorship practices, a very small percentage of Chinese citizens are aware of a lot of reasons they should be concerned about their government. Russian citizens are also wildly enthusiastic about Vladimir Put…

> "Russian citizens are also wildly enthusiastic about Vladimir Putin."

As far as I'm aware, that's a bit out of date. It also, I believe, comes from a misconception concerning human nature, namely that popularity is uni-dimensional. Which is to say, Russians who believe Putin is a superb leader in foreign affairs, great at making Russia seem big and scary to the rest of the world, may also think Putin is an ineffectual corrupt thug when it comes to domestic affairs.

When high popularity ratings are attributed to Putin, the surveys ask a wide variety of questions:

> How do you feel about how Putin is handling foreign conflicts?

> How do you feel about how Putin is handling the economy?

> How do you feel about how Putin is handling the drug epidemic?

> How do you feel about how Putin is handling corruption and law enforcement?

Approval for Putin varies GREATLY between questions like that. When it comes time to make a headline, whichever measure is chosen depends on which bolsters the story. If the story is that Putin is highly effective at manipulating his population, then the dimension across which he's the most popular is chosen for the headline. If the story is that Putin's power in Russia is faltering, then a different dimension is picked for the headline.

It's not lying per se, but it's very similar to a form of p-hacking. Picking which result to report and ignoring the others is a trick used often in the media and academia.

Here is an article that supports what I'm asserting: https://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/20/president-putin-russian...

See the nice little table at the bottom that breaks out Putin's approval rating on different issues. In 2015, 83% approved of the way he was handling Ukraine. This dropped to 63% by the spring of 2017. And by the spring of 2017, approval for how Putin is handling corruption is already below 49%. From this we can see there are Russians who approve of Putin's treatment of Ukraine who still think Putin is corrupt.

(That link is page two of the article, which I think is generally interesting and worth giving a read: https://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/20/russians-remain-confide... )

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#19

Post by powerapple »

ada1981 wrote: post #8
pxue wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't think you understand the premises of how one ends up on the bad list. "owing" money means you borrow from secondary lender, using it to buy risky assets. you essentially played with fire and got burned. lots of cases like this where these "businessmen" loses money and then declared bankruptcy, refusing to pay anyone back. sounds a lot like wallstreet doesn't it? are you okay with what they did? this is govern…

I don’t understand how someone ends up on the list. But I’m fairly certain I understand it more than you do. You can be put on the list for all sorts of things... “examples of infractions include bad driving, smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online.”

no, not really.
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