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WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

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Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#111

Post by zephyrfalcon »

hugh3 wrote: post #86
d2viant wrote: post #81

What surprises me most is that Julian Assange has lasted this long. This isn't OBL, where he's living in a cave somewhere -- this guy is known to travel between first world countries. I can understand those countries may not be willing to hand him over, but the US has lots of experience with rendition and I'm surprised some three-letter agency hasn't snatched him up yet.

And this actually proves an important point about the various three-letter agencies: they're not really the nefarious organizations that exist in the imaginations of people who have seen too many movies. Jason Bourne's CIA would has assassinated Julian Assange a long time ago. The real one just grumbles.

Hmmyeah... they're not exactly angels though... see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_transnational_human_rights_.... Maybe they are doing more than grumbling, we just don't know it yet. Or they realize that sudden "accidents" would be mighty suspicious and/or ineffective.

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#112

Post by varjag »

lfnik wrote: post #44
ajays wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish Wikileaks would just dump the contents, and leave the analysis to the rest of the world. By doing selective "analysis" and redaction, they're basically doing exactly what they claim to be fighting. Either release all the information, or withhold it. Don't play sides. Oh, and while you're at it, Wikileaks? I'd love to see leaks from Russia, China, UK, Japan etc. You've been picking on the US for far too long; t…

Assange has claimed he is about to release information that targets the Russian government and Russian businessmen (reported 10/26). The thing is, even if he does release it, most Russian citizens won't hear about it or won't care. Anything even remotely incriminating published about Russian businessmen and I can tell you he will probably want to find a good hiding place.

Russian society is thoroughly corrupt, no one there will even blink if more incriminating material is published on businessmen or government. It's just the default assumption really.

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#113

Post by moondowner »

moxiemk1 wrote: post #108
moondowner wrote: post #14

It's not only NYT releasing info about #cablegate, check out Guardian too: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/the-us-embassy-cables

Could we call it something more descriptive than "cablegate?" Its also not a scandal in the same way as Watergate - much more in line with the likes of the "Pentagon Papers". Perhaps a similarly descriptive hashtag, like #wikileakscables or #wikileaksdiplomaticcables if you're not bound by 140 characters. But please - let's raise the level of discourse from sensationalist "Action News" by refusing to use pidgeonhole…

True - Watergate maybe is a scandal of a larger scale, and true - a more descriptive tag could've been used, but the tag #cablegate was proposed by Wikileaks via their Twitter profile ( http://twitter.com/#!/wikileaks/status/8942910410072064 ), and everyone followed along.

I think that they did it so everyone would't use the tag #wikileaks when they are referring to the US Embassy cables release but a separate one.

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#114

Post by jacquesm »

lukeschlather wrote: post #71
philwelch wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many lynchings have occurred in the US in the past 30 years?

It depends on the definition of lynching. I have no doubt that anyone released from Guantanamo into the United States would be subject to harassment, if not actual danger. The people in congress arguing vociferously against their release must have reasons, and as far as I can see that's either the belief that everyone in Guantanamo deserves to be there, or the belief that it will result in violence if they come to th…

I think their biggest fear is that once in the US they would sue the US government for unlawful acts and succeed.

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#115

Post by d2viant »

berntb wrote: post #102
d2viant wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right with regards to US agencies. I'll be more interested to see what happens if he releases damaging information against less tolerant governments, i.e. the Russians.

Oh please, you're paranoid. The Russians would probably just have a chat over some tea... :-)

I'm sure they would love to have tea with him in that situation. The last guy to have tea with the Russians ended up poisoned with polonium-210:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinen...

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#116

Post by zephyrfalcon »

jscore wrote: post #85
d2viant wrote: post #81

What surprises me most is that Julian Assange has lasted this long. This isn't OBL, where he's living in a cave somewhere -- this guy is known to travel between first world countries. I can understand those countries may not be willing to hand him over, but the US has lots of experience with rendition and I'm surprised some three-letter agency hasn't snatched him up yet.

Why is it surprising? America can't go against every one who doesn't agree with them. It needs to weigh its options carefully and intelligently. The mere reason that Hugo Chavez is still in power testifies to this fact. The world is not black and white where we might send CIA or Special Forces to neutralize someone who we don't like. It's definitely more complicated than it seems. There are other, more indirect ways…

"Why is it surprising? America can't go against every one who doesn't agree with them. It needs to weigh its options carefully and intelligently. The mere reason that Hugo Chavez is still in power testifies to this fact."

In this post-cold war world, he might be less important, so I would expect there would be less of an effort to oust him. The US does have, shall we say, a bit of a track record of unseating governments they don't like.

(Look at this list [http://www.zompist.com/latam.html] for Latin America alone...)

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#117

Post by mseebach »

flyt wrote: post #92
GHFigs wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the fact that the government was kicking him out of the military for being gay If that is a fact, is there a source? "An Army spokesman, Lt. Col. Eric Bloom, said Manning, who entered the Army as a private in October 2007, was demoted last month for an assault. He said he was not facing early discharge." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/09/us/09manning.html?pagewant... > friends said his social life was defined by the need to conceal his sexuality under “don’t ask, don’t tell”

Correlation does not imply causation.

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#118

Post by patrickgzill »

d2viant wrote: post #81

What surprises me most is that Julian Assange has lasted this long. This isn't OBL, where he's living in a cave somewhere -- this guy is known to travel between first world countries. I can understand those countries may not be willing to hand him over, but the US has lots of experience with rendition and I'm surprised some three-letter agency hasn't snatched him up yet.

For all you know he is controlled opposition.

There is little reason to believe that the contents of these cables aren't already known to other governments, given that many soldiers from the rank of private on up had access to them; and that the UK, France, Israel, Germany, etc. also do extensive signals intelligence, crypto, and even good old fashioned human based spying.

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#119

Post by commandar »

Helianthus16 wrote: post #43

What is interesting about this is not the damage it does, which will likely be minimal as it's really just embarrassing. What's interesting is the look into the hidden minds of countries. I didn't know, for instance, that so many Arab countries urged US intervention in Iran, or that Israel has been monitoring Iran's nuclear program so closely--as indicated by their pressing warning that 2010 specifically is a key yea…

>I didn't know, for instance, that so many Arab countries urged US intervention in Iran

This type of information is what's likely to end up being actually damaging. There's a good chance nations that may have offered private support while maintaining public face will be less cooperative in the future.

> or that Israel has been monitoring Iran's nuclear program so closely--as indicated by their pressing warning that 2010 specifically is a key year.

This part isn't that surprising, to be honest. The Israelis keep very close tabs on their neighbors, ad the Mossad has earned their reputation as being one of the most effective intelligence agencies in the world.

Remember a few years ago when Israeli jets seemingly randomly bombed Syria with almost no public reaction from Syria? In fact, everyone involved was strangely quiet about it, with the Syrians claiming the Israelis had just bombed empty desert. Turns out the Israelis had gotten wind of a clandestine nuclear reactor supplied by North Korea and taken it down.[1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#120

Post by nir »

As someone who grew in the Mideast and spent some time in the US/EU/Aus, I was often amazed how completely detached Westerners are from the way the rest of the world works.

Left wingers or conservatives, so many guns & money have been sheltering the past 2-3 generations from reality that they genuinely believe most people share their values and goals, and that the world operates similarly to their own surroundings.

If these documents will cause people to start questioning the utter bullshit they are fed by Fox News or Reddit, Glenn Beck or Jon Stewart, then Assange is the most important person alive today. I doubt that would happen, though.

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