Live data from Hacker News

Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

bbc.com

151–160 of 164 posts

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#151
post #90
post #49

For those who talks about evil East must read Jhon Perkins Economic Hitman and they will find China innocent.

Please don't start doing nationalistic flamewar again on HN. I realize it's hard to resist, when other people are posting provocative comments. But taking the thread further in the low-information, high-agitation direction is exactly the wrong thing to do here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Agreed Sir! but why political threads are allowed on HN in the first place? What is Hacking in it? I Just pointed them out to read Jhon Perkins book before painting a rosy picture of the West, the book was written by another American.

I'd request HN team to flag all such threads at first place. I visit HN to learn about Tech, Biz and STEM related, not about politics. Thanks.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#152
post #151
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't start doing nationalistic flamewar again on HN. I realize it's hard to resist, when other people are posting provocative comments. But taking the thread further in the low-information, high-agitation direction is exactly the wrong thing to do here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Agreed Sir! but why political threads are allowed on HN in the first place? What is Hacking in it? I Just pointed them out to read Jhon Perkins book before painting a rosy picture of the West, the book was written by another American. I'd request HN team to flag all such threads at first place. I visit HN to learn about Tech, Biz and STEM related, not about politics. Thanks.

The mandate of HN is to gratify intellectual curiosity. Some stories that do that have political overlap. There's no way around it.

I wrote a bunch about that here if anyone wants more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#153

I feel it's impossible to participate in a balanced discussion with the C word comes up on hacker news and elsewhere online (China). I was going to reply to a couple comments but retrained myself because I feel like there's no point arguing with a shill or what feels like organized, state funded astro turfing. I do NOT advocate the US getting into this game tit/tat through manipulating/commenting on US based media bu…

Fair enough, but I like to stay abreast of the latest propaganda narratives.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#154
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they are not. Ships try to deliver cargo as deep in the country as possible. Then trucks take over ( Europe), because of different destinations. You think they are joining the world trade order, I just see an expensive debt trap that won't even change 0,1% in a countries trade

The advantage of trucks over trains isn't as large as you seem to believe. E.g. at the port of Hamburg, the majority of cargo (55%) is transported onwards by truck, but the share of trains (42.8%) isn't that much smaller. https://www.hafen-hamburg.de/en/statistics/modalsplit

In all my statements, the statement of trucks vs trains was irrelevant. Your numbers side with the fact that after harbor, trucks are more popular.

It's that I call bullshit on the one road one belt.

That trains vs container ships is irrelevant. Trains lose big time

That's it's more a "build useless infrastructure that you otherwise can't afford and that Chinese will build with no locals" debt trap for countries to China.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#155
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be a collective effort to put pressure on China to politically reform.

Isn't that up to its citizens? Was there a collective effort to get YOUR country to "politically reform"? Would you appreciate one?

Indeed. Requesting political reform is not very smart... Political wise

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is not an ally of China. It cooperates with China to maintain peaceful military and political relations in Asia and it has vast trade with China. There's a dramatic, fundamental difference between being an ally and being a global competitor that you try to get along with (ie try not to go to war with as you collide repeatedly on matters of perceived national interest). Britain, France, Germany, Poland, Canada,…

> There's a dramatic, fundamental difference Yes, the difference being "when it suits the US it's OK, when it suits somebody else, it's bad".

>China is built on thievery and finally after decades of escalating theft US is looking like we’re being more aggressive, maybe.

Yeah, more proving my point.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2013-02-01/piracy...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too/

Not to mention that the same exact argument was once leveled at the "subpar" "copycat" "ripoffs" of Taiwan and Japan (regarding cars, electronics, etc) back in the 60s and 70s. Funny how that turned out...

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that up to its citizens? Was there a collective effort to get YOUR country to "politically reform"? Would you appreciate one?

If my country was engaged in sending Muslims to concentration camps, medical genocide (organ harvesting), and all sorts of human rights abuses, then I would very much appreciate if there was a collective effort to get my country to politically reform. Why wouldn't you appreciate that?

If it was engaged in slavery, and then segregation (up to the 60s), had the biggest incarceration rates in the world (of hugely disproportionally black population), had torture sites off limits to the law, send drones to kill people without trial and without official act of war to the other country, was the only western country to still have the death penalty, and at great rates, and even for 15 year olds, plus routine police shootings on innocent people, SWATing invasions with victims for insignificant offenses, and so on, plus was established on the deterritorialization, interment, and genocide of a whole race of millions of natives, ad even did lethal medical experiments on unsuspecting foreign populations, if it was the only country that dropped atomic bombs to another (and to civilians at that)?

Would you be OK with a collective foreign effort to politically reform? Perhaps change the constitution or something based on what some foreigners insist to be there?

Especially if all cases of such "valiant" efforts on your end in the last 20 years have made things worse, turning stable regimes (Iraq, Libya, Syria) to hell-holes of loss, civil war, fanatical muslim rule, and turf wars?

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#158

I feel it's impossible to participate in a balanced discussion with the C word comes up on hacker news and elsewhere online (China). I was going to reply to a couple comments but retrained myself because I feel like there's no point arguing with a shill or what feels like organized, state funded astro turfing. I do NOT advocate the US getting into this game tit/tat through manipulating/commenting on US based media bu…

I agree that there's no point in arguing with low-quality comments, but for different reasons.

The other kind of comment that predictably appears in threads about China are suspicions that astroturfing is going on. When dang bothers to respond asking for proof, it usually later turns out that the comments in question were made by completely ordinary members of the community who happened to voice a dissenting opinion. (Those kinds of accusations are against the guidelines, by the way.)

There is also not just one group making such comments, but at least two different ones:

The first are all about whataboutism. Whenever the topic is the Chinese government doing evil thing X, they start talking about the US government doing something similar to X. Those people are highly likely to be US citizens (their obsession with US politics is a strong hint) and they only use China to segue into the topic they're actually interested in discussing.

The second are Chinese cheerleaders. They think that China is overall on the right track and point to rapid economic growth as proof. You don't usually see them in threads about Chinese human rights abuses (because even they agree that those are evil), but in other cases, like here at the bottom, they make an appearance. There's no need for the government to pay those supporters, because the natural supply of nationalist types is large enough.

There is a third kind that's easily confused with the second. Some people will agree with specific developments because they feel that the previous situation was even worse. For most people, Google censoring search results would be a bad thing, because for them the change is (uncensored Google -> censored Google). But for Chinese people who see the change in terms of (censored Baidu/Bing -> censored Google) it's still an improvement.

Then there's a fourth kind on the opposite side, for whom everything about China is connected to everything else. They're somewhat of a mirror image of the first group; instead of using China doing X as a prompt to talk about the US doing X, they'll talk about China also doing Y and Z instead.

I think none of those trends are much to worry about, though. Although HN voting on political topics tends to be quite a bit noisier, well thought-out responses are still more likely to end up closer to the top than to the bottom.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#159
post #32

> "The seemingly innocuous move comes at a sensitive time for Europe and the European Union, where there is suddenly a great deal of trepidation not only about China, but about working out how Europe or the EU should adapt and react to a changing world," Prof Frankopan told the BBC. Forgive my ignorance, but aren't many EU decisions required to be unanimous? So if China has close ties to Italy, could it use it's infl…

> Forgive my ignorance, but aren't many EU decisions required to be unanimous? So if China has close ties to Italy, could it use it's influence to convince Italy to "veto" hypothetical EU sanctions against Chinese human rights violations or other actions that are good for the EU but against Chinese domestic and foreign policy? Yes, just like Germany does with its EU satellite states, and the US has done in Europe sin…

My partner works on EU matters for the German government. The idea that the other EU countries are "satellites" of Germany is ludicrous to anyone with any knowledge of the actual processes.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#160
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. That is my major concern. In fact, it has already happened! We have already Greece (with its China owned ports) blocking an EU statement: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-un-rights/greece-block...

In fairness, from the perspective of the average Greek citizen, the EU thing hasn't worked out terribly well for their homeland. In the West what we need is to restructure our facilities such that if you participate you will prosper. We need for everyone to prosper. Not necessarily equally, but what happened to Greece went beyond simply not prospering as much as other nations. It was legitimately negatively impacted.…

> [for Greeks] EU thing hasn't worked out

What didn't work out for Greeks was their corrupt politicians/elites and lack of sufficient oversight, including by EU institutions. All sorts of requirements that all EU members have to meet were never enforced for Greece.

From the time Greece joined the Euro (by cheating) to the start of the financial crisis, Greek GDP skyrocketed 2.3x. That's astounding, and pretty much unheard of. Of course it wasn't real, because there were no corresponding improvements in Greek economic efficiency or productivity.

I wrote about this at the time: https://blog.metaobject.com/2015/07/greek-choices-german-per...

Post reply on HN