Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#111

Post by steve19 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:20 PM UTC

cl42 wrote: post #34

dghughes wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at Sri Lanka where nothing has been done except environmental disaster. Now Sri Lanka owes its soul, and land, to China. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/world/asia/sri-lanka-chin... Montenegro has a bridge to nowhere built by Chinese workers instead of locals. Billions owed to China for a useless bridge. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-silkroad-europe-mon... It seems to be China "invading" countries…

Thanks for this. Do you think it would be different if it's an EU member state? i.e., with EU oversight (assuming there is any), the BRI funds and investments could be applied and used differently.

The bridge seems a terrible investment, regardless of who pays for it, but these terms are terrible:

"Under the terms of the contract, an arbitration court in China would have jurisdiction in the event of any legal dispute. CRBC won commitments that all imported construction materials, equipment and other goods be exempt from customs and value-added tax. Chinese workers were given 70 percent of the work."

Thr Chinese government issues a loan then disputes are handled by a body whose independence is highly questionable.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#112

Post by mlinksva » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:28 PM UTC

Leary wrote: post #26

If the US wants to counter China's Belt and Road Project, it should offer a suitable alternative instead of merely talking about how it's debt trap diplomacy.

Why not join rather than counter? Surely a deal could be wored out that would fit the theme, e.g., US could let China companies build and manage HSR, China could let US cloud vendors operate freely.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#113

Post by npc_geroge123 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:36 PM UTC

NicoJuicy wrote: post #28

devoply wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be a collective effort to put pressure on China to politically reform.

Not possible in the current position, how can the US ( no offence) work together globally with the current leader. He has some points ( eg. Military spending fot countries of the EU), but he's clearly unstable as a leader. I even think that the wall would just mean, a lot of money coming his way, as a real estate developer.

You _think_ he is unstable and you _think_ he would personally profit from the wall?

Let's come back to reality.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#114

Post by Strom » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

chelovek89 wrote: post #69

Leary wrote: post #26

If the US wants to counter China's Belt and Road Project, it should offer a suitable alternative instead of merely talking about how it's debt trap diplomacy.

It’s more like your friend pointing out your bad spending habits and telling you not to get a payday loan.

That's a nice thought but doesn't balance well with the $1 trillion debt to China that US themselves have. Almost as if the US doesn't want other countries to prosper using Chinese money. Goes well with the America First slogan.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the Chinese money doesn't come with baggage. However I think it's ridiculous to believe that the US is on some altruistic lookout for others here, as opposed to just being interested in maximising US benefits.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#115

Post by ssijak » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

dghughes wrote: post #18

cl42 wrote: post #7

> The European Union is also worried about unfair competition from Chinese companies, which are controlled by the Chinese government and benefit from the state’s financial backing. EU leaders in Brussels are preparing a strategy to counter the growing influence of China, which they describe as a “systemic rival.” Most of the Western articles I've read express concern over Italy's involvement in the BRI. However, I am…

Look at Sri Lanka where nothing has been done except environmental disaster. Now Sri Lanka owes its soul, and land, to China. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/world/asia/sri-lanka-chin... Montenegro has a bridge to nowhere built by Chinese workers instead of locals. Billions owed to China for a useless bridge. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-silkroad-europe-mon... It seems to be China "invading" countries…

I’ll take useless bridge any day over so many destroyed bridges that US left in montenenegro in yugoslavia bombings and wars elsewere in the world.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#116

Post by jjcc » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

There is some information that usually won't show up in BBC but discussed in other places which might worth some attention for HNers:

Some part of the cooperation is on development of Africa which probabley is part of China's current plan or even part of OBOR. We know that Italy is major victim of the wave of iligle immigrants accross the ocean. An inductrialized and stable Africa is also in the interest of Italy. That could explain why Italy is more interested in OBOR than other Eurapian countries.

Does that make sense?

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#117

Post by coldtea » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:40 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #32

> "The seemingly innocuous move comes at a sensitive time for Europe and the European Union, where there is suddenly a great deal of trepidation not only about China, but about working out how Europe or the EU should adapt and react to a changing world," Prof Frankopan told the BBC. Forgive my ignorance, but aren't many EU decisions required to be unanimous? So if China has close ties to Italy, could it use it's infl…

>Forgive my ignorance, but aren't many EU decisions required to be unanimous? So if China has close ties to Italy, could it use it's influence to convince Italy to "veto" hypothetical EU sanctions against Chinese human rights violations or other actions that are good for the EU but against Chinese domestic and foreign policy?

Yes, just like Germany does with its EU satellite states, and the US has done in Europe since WWII.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#118

Post by coldtea » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #110

makomk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the whole reason Greek ports are owned by China in the first place is that Germany forced the Greek government to sell them off to the highest bidder as part of their great economic fucking-over of Greece. So it's hard to have a huge amount of sympathy if this causes headaches for the core EU states.

Germany only "forced" Greece in the sense that they didn't pay Greece's debts for them.

And in many other ways, starting from the ECU era, but that's too subtle for modern readers...

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#119

Post by sampo » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:45 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #73

eastendguy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. That is my major concern. In fact, it has already happened! We have already Greece (with its China owned ports) blocking an EU statement: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-un-rights/greece-block...

In fairness, from the perspective of the average Greek citizen, the EU thing hasn't worked out terribly well for their homeland. In the West what we need is to restructure our facilities such that if you participate you will prosper. We need for everyone to prosper. Not necessarily equally, but what happened to Greece went beyond simply not prospering as much as other nations. It was legitimately negatively impacted.…

> In fairness, from the perspective of the average Greek citizen, the EU thing hasn't worked out terribly well for their homeland.

From the perspective of the average Greek citizen, the Greece thing hasn't worked out terribly well either.

> what we need is to restructure our facilities such that if you participate you will prosper

EU doesn't, yet at least, have enough power to take over whole countries then the country's government is shortsighted and is running their own country into a long term ruin for some short term temporary wins.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#120

Post by oh_sigh » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:45 PM UTC

jjcc wrote: post #116

There is some information that usually won't show up in BBC but discussed in other places which might worth some attention for HNers: Some part of the cooperation is on development of Africa which probabley is part of China's current plan or even part of OBOR. We know that Italy is major victim of the wave of iligle immigrants accross the ocean. An inductrialized and stable Africa is also in the interest of Italy. Th…

Why aren't migrants shipped around proportionately to the various EU countries?