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On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python

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Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python

#71

Post by bayesian_horse »

pagefault123 wrote: post #37
toyg wrote: post #30

> Note that I've not written any significant code in either language, so I'm just writing based on what I've learnt by reading. So he’s basically comparing 20+ years of Python usage with marketing material from Go and Rust. Right. I wish people could be honest with their motivations, instead of making up excuses to justify this sort of change. Here it’s a classic case of “I got bored and I don’t like the new features…

Perhaps there should be apostasy punishments for Python defectors. /s Python's typing story is far from perfect and rather annoying compared to other languages. Python is good for interacting with the operating system, networking and other things. But wanting a proper compiler is an honest motivation.

There are type checkers now.

Personally I find type systems a lot more annoying because they lead to more verbose code and more cognitive load. There are studies that show bugs being proportional to the number of lines of code, regardless of language. And that effect seems to be more significant than the difference among dynamic and static type systems.

Defensive programming can be achieved through various means. Type checking is one of them and often can't replace Unit and Integration testing. Validation of Inputs or other data is another issue.

Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python

#72

Post by darkr »

codetrotter wrote: post #11
jMyles wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a high level, I agree with what you're saying here - that it's difficult to compare rust or go with python. But I take some issue with your reasoning. > After all python is still an interpreted scripting language. Is it? Or rather, is this even a well-defined category? > interpreted Can't any (OK, almost any) language be either interpreted or compiled? The fact that python is typically run in an interpretive runti…

I largely agree with what you said but > there's nothing lingual about python that stops it from being compiled Are you sure? Python is a very dynamic language. Some of the most dynamic parts of python might not be possible to compile fully ahead of time and might need to be JITed, because the behavior of the code will only be possible to determine at runtime.

CPython doesn't have a JIT. It compiles to bytecode, which is then "interpreted" by a stack based VM.

Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python

#73

Post by mlthoughts2018 »

shadowmint wrote: post #68
typon wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet the entire data science world is built on Python. I don't understand this blatant disregard of reality.

no, the trivial frontend is built in python; the real code is usually c++ or c. Ignore that reality if you want to, but it is a fact. Big complicated python projects are seldom pure python, they are usually a friendly python frontend to a serious application written in something else. It seems in no way remarkable that someone wanting to build a serious backend type piece of functionality would pick another language…

The CPython interpreter itself is a C program. Acting like extension modules “aren’t Python” is highly disingenuous.

Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python

#74

Post by bayesian_horse »

empath75 wrote: post #42
toyg wrote: post #30

> Note that I've not written any significant code in either language, so I'm just writing based on what I've learnt by reading. So he’s basically comparing 20+ years of Python usage with marketing material from Go and Rust. Right. I wish people could be honest with their motivations, instead of making up excuses to justify this sort of change. Here it’s a classic case of “I got bored and I don’t like the new features…

Type checking as an add-on is okay but it is not the same thing as a statically typed language.

There is no proof or study that statically typed languages are safer in any regard than others.

Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python

#75

Post by stingraycharles »

siteshwar wrote: post #54

> Rust is developed by a community, and was started by Mozilla. Go development seems to be de facto controlled by Google, who originated the language. I'd rather bet my non-work future on a language that isn't controlled by a huge corporation, especially one of the main players in today's surveillance economy. Anyone else agree with this view ? Programming languages should be choosen based on technical merits, rather…

I think it’s a very important aspect of the language’s ecosystem health, as the steward has a big impact on it.

This can be both a blessing or a curse. Google seems to be on the good side, but I’ve seen plenty of languages which are frustrated by its steward.

Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python

#76

Post by Annatar »

lordnacho wrote: post #32

I'm going to have a go with Rust and Go too, but for different reasons. IMO Python is still the best language to go with when you are writing anything "scripty": - Stuff that's not expected to be long. Do one thing well, let some other program do another, compose the higher order functions from functions that work. Of course this isn't always possible. - Stuff where the types are not going to confuse you. Often you j…

There is one and only one language that's both correct and the best tool for scripting: Bourne or its superset the Korn shell (not even bash).

Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python

#77

Post by shadowmint »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #73
shadowmint wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, the trivial frontend is built in python; the real code is usually c++ or c. Ignore that reality if you want to, but it is a fact. Big complicated python projects are seldom pure python, they are usually a friendly python frontend to a serious application written in something else. It seems in no way remarkable that someone wanting to build a serious backend type piece of functionality would pick another language…

The CPython interpreter itself is a C program. Acting like extension modules “aren’t Python” is highly disingenuous.

Oh please, go read the source code for tensorflow and then come back and we can have a real conversation.

Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python

#78

Post by mpweiher »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #74
empath75 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Type checking as an add-on is okay but it is not the same thing as a statically typed language.

There is no proof or study that statically typed languages are safer in any regard than others.

True. However, there is fairly strong evidence that it helps with understanding code.

Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python

#79

Post by bayesian_horse »

siteshwar wrote: post #54

> Rust is developed by a community, and was started by Mozilla. Go development seems to be de facto controlled by Google, who originated the language. I'd rather bet my non-work future on a language that isn't controlled by a huge corporation, especially one of the main players in today's surveillance economy. Anyone else agree with this view ? Programming languages should be choosen based on technical merits, rather…

In all three cases, Python, Go and Rust, the language and ecosystem may be in the hands of an organization, but you can probably produce code productively in it for years even if the organization went under or chose unacceptable paths.

Go is quite unique in that it produces very independent binaries. This might make software written in it quite future-proof.

Personally I like Python's philosophy and the way the community is run. I like the trajectory. I understand the trade-offs. And I am sure as hell not going to teach Go or Rust as a first programming language to people who aren't computer science students. And even then...

Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python

#80

Post by spaced-out »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #69
typon wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet the entire data science world is built on Python. I don't understand this blatant disregard of reality.

Not just data science: the entire machine learning and scientific computing world, if we’re honest. Need to do huge numerical linear algebra operations very fast with great memory safety and ease of use? Python.

Technically, you'd use a C/C++ library with a Python wrapper.
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