try java.
no, seriously.
java and a good IDE (netbeans or eclipse, not some editors like vscode) are a godsend to handle "bigger" project.
It's absolutely fast to compile and insanely on-the-fly static checks all over the place.
On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python
51–60 of 346 posts
Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python
#52Strongly agree with author. I really like Python and at one point thought that it makes sense to write almost any project in it, since it's so versatile and I know it pretty well. After working on a quite large application and having to use lots of assert(isinstance(arg, type) at the beginning of almost every function, I began to think that a strong type system is very much needed for large projects. I believe this w…
> I began to think that a strong type system
You’re confusing static/dynamic and strong/weak. Python is a strongly typed language, but also is dynamicly typed language.
Need proof? Try doing this:
a = 3
b = “3”
c = a + b
> having to use lots of assert(isinstance(arg, type))
Python has type hinting now, try using a current version of Python and this isn’t needed.
Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree. 15k lines of code is a lot of code to keep entirely in your head all at once, which is basically what you have to do if you're using a language as dynamic as Python. In static languages like Java you can easily use tools to check types are correct, find usages of variables, jump to definitions and so on. And you get compile time errors if you screw up, rather than runtime errors.
Most of the above is due to a proper IDE. Python, too, has one : PyCharm. Comes with 'find usage of variables', 'jump to definition', types checking, syntax correction, import optimization and much much more. 15k with pycharm is a walk in a park \ *More than one, of course. But I use only PyCharm :)
It's nowhere near the capabilities of a good Java IDE; being Python, it's very heuristic based rather than definitive. I know that searching for a variable in Java would get me all instances, no ifs no buts. Not so with Pycharm (or any Python IDE).
I support the notion that Python is unsuitable for larger codebases with all my heart.
Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python
#54> Rust is developed by a community, and was started by Mozilla. Go development seems to be de facto controlled by Google, who originated the language. I'd rather bet my non-work future on a language that isn't controlled by a huge corporation, especially one of the main players in today's surveillance economy.
Anyone else agree with this view ? Programming languages should be choosen based on technical merits, rather than who is behind it. Is there a lesson from history that I am missing ?
Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python
#55Strongly agree with author. I really like Python and at one point thought that it makes sense to write almost any project in it, since it's so versatile and I know it pretty well. After working on a quite large application and having to use lots of assert(isinstance(arg, type) at the beginning of almost every function, I began to think that a strong type system is very much needed for large projects. I believe this w…
> I began to think that a strong type system You’re confusing static/dynamic and strong/weak. Python is a strongly typed language, but also is dynamicly typed language. Need proof? Try doing this: a = 3 b = “3” c = a + b > having to use lots of assert(isinstance(arg, type)) Python has type hinting now, try using a current version of Python and this isn’t needed.
The point is that your example will not break anything until run time, unless some static analysis tools are deployed (which are much more limited compared to what a compiler can achieve).
Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python
#56"Partly it's because I'd like more help from my programming tools, such as static type checking, better handling of abstractions"
As soon as I read that, I know immediately that I'm dealing with an object-oriented programmer. Always the same gripes, always the same problems! Your programming paradigm is busted and no language will ever be able to change that, no matter what lexicography and grammar it implements! There is a reason why procedural or functional programmers don't complain about those types of issues!
Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly. 15Kloc is just out of the 'this stuff is easy' zone and switching to Rust or Go will make that problem larger, not smaller (because you will need more code to achieve the same effect).
It’s not just about code organisation though. Both Rust and Go have fantastic compilers which catch a great many dumb but common user errors before you even get to the stage of testing. Obviously this doesn’t replace the need for functional tests but writing those tests is as much prone to user error as writing the code itself. So having a compiler check for stupidity up front is always going to be a bonus. Also the…
It all depends on type of project timeline etc. I find the stupid errors in untyped languages trivial to catch. In debugging the hard errors are what takes long time to deal with. Those types of errors are rarely can be caught by compiler.
On other hand dynamic languages give you flexibility and speed when developing. In some cases that is worth a lot more then losses you suffer from them.
Having said that Rust is just terrible application language. It was built for a purpose use it for that purpose.
From typed perspective from what I have used recently Swift is probably my favourite.
Here comes the catch, libraries, community support all tramp the hell out of almost any language feature.
There is a reason we write metric ton of C++ for everything and basically everything Python has C++ and C under the hood. C++ has stuff to do it all, it has been tested polished, tested some more documented and works. Now even Pytorch has first class C++ API.. It’s about time!
Java traumatized me as a young engineer fresh out of school. I can’t bring myself to even look at it these days. I am sure it is much better now. I just can’t do it.
Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python
#58So a typically unimaginative python programmer sees new Kool aid and is thinking about taking a drink. Decides to write blog post about it. And somehow it's #1 on hn.
Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python
#59> Note that I've not written any significant code in either language, so I'm just writing based on what I've learnt by reading. So he’s basically comparing 20+ years of Python usage with marketing material from Go and Rust. Right. I wish people could be honest with their motivations, instead of making up excuses to justify this sort of change. Here it’s a classic case of “I got bored and I don’t like the new features…
Perhaps there should be apostasy punishments for Python defectors. /s Python's typing story is far from perfect and rather annoying compared to other languages. Python is good for interacting with the operating system, networking and other things. But wanting a proper compiler is an honest motivation.
Yet the entire data science world is built on Python. I don't understand this blatant disregard of reality.
Re: On Learning Rust and Go: Migrating Away from Python
#60> Note that I've not written any significant code in either language, so I'm just writing based on what I've learnt by reading. So he’s basically comparing 20+ years of Python usage with marketing material from Go and Rust. Right. I wish people could be honest with their motivations, instead of making up excuses to justify this sort of change. Here it’s a classic case of “I got bored and I don’t like the new features…
You don't need to convince anyone, including yourself, that python's well-known limitations couldn't possibly have inspired this guy to look at other languages.