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ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

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Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Racial disharmony is illegal." Why? Why should racial disharmony be illegal? It sucks when people don't like you, maybe they have good reasons, maybe not - but legislating "harmony" just sounds wrong. Also, why are people allowed to loudly proclaim "white people are evil" loudly, and broadly, without issues - isn't that also racial disharmony?

Why? because Australia and NZ have large immigrant populations (in fact, are large immigrant populations) that contain many races. Racial disharmony causes huge problems, and creates the real possibility of violence, mayhem and bloodshed. As reasonable societies, these things are seen as bad and to be avoided. Consequently, actions that will create racial disharmony are illegal. You can hate on whoever you like, but…

>You can hate on whoever you like, but you can't grab a megaphone, head down to the mall, and encourage other people to hate the same people that you do. I don't know about you, but that seems like a pretty benign restriction to me...

Where do you draw the line? All of the items in this list (going from least inflammatory to most) could possibly be construed as causing "racial disharmony":

"We shouldn't give special benefits to [minority group] (eg. affirmative action)"

"[minority group] commit x% more crime than the rest of the population" (factual)

"I personally don't like [minority group]"

"We should enact legislation that specifically penalize [minority group]"

"I wish [minority group] would die/get hurt"

"We need to kill/hurt [minority group]"

"Let's go kill/hurt [minority group]"

For reference, the US criteria is somewhere between the last two (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_and_present_danger).

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#122
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ISPs aren't banning sites for kicks. New Zealanders have been arrested for distributing the video.

Great, please show me the act of parliament done in the light of day that made this illegal? The video SHOULD NOT BE WATCHED. It stand for everything I as a human abhor. However it is slippy slope, that leads to no good end.

I don't know what you mean by "act of parliament". This video should most definitely be watched in order to understand this event in full. No description of what happened can impart upon you the brutality of watching him go back in to double tap the victims. There is a severe lack of understanding of the impact of our actions when we choose to censor events like this.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#123

Not everyone holds the same absolute views on freedom of speech as those drawn up in the American constitution. There is also plenty of opposing views of a "constitutionally limited government" that seems to be at the heart of American culture. Frankly, it's pretty disturbing how many Americans are unable to comprehend that their way isn't the "only way" that can be valid. The New Zealand Bill of Rights provides free…

The New Zealand Bill of Rights is the single most toothless, feeble, pointless piece of legislation I have ever read. http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/D... Literally everything else overrides it, if I'm reading this right: -------- Other enactments not affected No court shall, in relation to any enactment (whether passed or made before or after the commencement of this Bill of Rights),— (a)h…

Well, your Bill of Rights is just a law passed by the Parliament. As such, it can be repealed by the Parliament, if and when they feel like it. This is your parliamentary sovereignty system at work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#124
post #109

The problem with censoring and banning the information outright (in the case of NZ) is that it gives power to the manifesto. So much of what Jacinda Ardern said after the shooting was about denying the person a platform: "We, in New Zealand, will give him nothing. Not even his name." "He sought many things from his act of terror, but one was notoriety, and that is why you will never hear me mention his name." And yet…

I think one of the core reasons they don't want people to read it is that in the aftermath they're doing everything he wanted and more.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#125
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, why are people allowed to loudly proclaim "white people are evil" loudly, and broadly, without issues Source? And I don’t mean calling the individual(s) in this case evil – which they are practically by definition – I mean broadly painting “white people” as being evil.

Either you're being disingenuous, ignorant, or lazy, but here. Simple Twitter Search for "white people are evil" https://twitter.com/search?q=white%20people%20are%20evil&src... EDIT: Ironically, many of those proclaiming such things are either the uber-woke SJW white people, or the black supremecist types.

Edit: any explanation for the downvote? Maybe the list was overkill, but I was responding to someone who accused another of being 'disingenuous, ignorant, or lazy', then presented very weak evidence for a claim that was supposed to be so obvious that questioning it justified those insults. (Basically no evidence at all, since it had nothing to do with New Zealand, the country which this discussion was specifically about)

Original:

When I looked at the top 20 results, they didn't back up your point very well. (I didn't do any cherrypicking -- I don't know what the 21st result was. If I wanted to be sneaky I would have only presented the first 10.)

I counted four people actually making that claim (one of whom qualified it with 'sometimes', but generalised it with 'all'). None of the four seemed to be from New Zealand.

The rest were mostly complaints about other people who supposedly think or say white people are evil. Some were definitely right-wing extremists.

The full list was:

- 'sometimes all white people are evil'

- complaint about white people being blamed for things and called evil

- anti-semite complaining about a Jewish man calling himself white

- someone saying "not all white people are evil, judge people by their character not their skin color"

- white supremacist

- person complaining about white people being called evil

- 'There’s still evil white people in the world, and we all know about the history between us and them, but y’all need to stop acting like EVERY white person is evil bruh. The people that do are a part of the problem too.'

- 'While Candace Owens can't believe this she is letting white conservatives at #CPAC believe this is true. This emboldens their view that the real victim of racism in America is white people. These words by Owens are beyond irresponsible-they are truly evil. '

- someone disagreeing with the view that 'Hitler is only considered to be evil because he killed white people'

- anti-semite

- person complaining about 'assholes ranting about how white people are evil'

- description of Jordan Peele's movie as 'the white people are evil movie'

- person saying it unironically

- person saying it unironically

- person complainiing about people who think that Democrats 'hate "white" people'

- complaint about people who say white people are evil

- ALL CAPS POST COMPLAINING ABOUT RACISM AGAINST WHITES

- 'These fucks here and people like these give white people a horrible rep. Can’t generalize a whole race like that tho.'

- person saying it unironically

- ' seeing conventionally attractive white people having excuses made for their evil actions is irritating AF'

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#126
post #22

My apologies. Might I ask a question, please? How do we otherwise stop the internet being hacked to support these vile creatures?

I don't know what you mean by hacked, but this would have been less of an issue if New Zealand had not tried to censor it. The Streisand effect is very real. If you're looking for a technical solution, there is none. The most valuable feature of the Internet is its resistance to censorship. Cut off one head, and two more shall take its place.

Hacked, in this case would mean that the violence was designed to drive traffic towards the manifesto, which would have otherwise vanished into obscurity. But I take your point regarding censorship.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#127

Not everyone holds the same absolute views on freedom of speech as those drawn up in the American constitution. There is also plenty of opposing views of a "constitutionally limited government" that seems to be at the heart of American culture. Frankly, it's pretty disturbing how many Americans are unable to comprehend that their way isn't the "only way" that can be valid. The New Zealand Bill of Rights provides free…

Agreed. I grew up in NZ and now live in America. There are distinct cultural differences that really do separate the two countries. The need for freedom and privacy (although really is a bit of a joke considering the power of the federal government) is one that's really important to Americans. Kiwis don't really have that inherent distrust of the government in the same way, and our equivalent idea is that we're all m…

> and why America has a political class unwilling to do something like socialize healthcare (even at a regional level)

I don't see how that's a correct statement. Half of Americans are in some form of government, socialized, healthcare system. Socialized healthcare is not only common in America (a quarter of the population is on fully socialized programs just in Medicaid/CHIP/etc), it's quite popular with about 2/3 of the population and the majority of politicians. The US spends about $650 billion just on the Medicaid + CHIP programs. Republicans hardly dare to go anywhere near Medicaid or Medicare these days. 30-40 years ago, the exact opposite was the case, Republicans (the traditional opposition party to socialized healthcare) frequently, commonly argued against nearly all forms of government healthcare. In the Reagan era, it was routine for prominent Republican politicians to call for privatized alternatives to Medicare. Today they won't dare go near that for fear of voter retribution. The most likely outcome over the next 10-15 years, is Medicaid will see continued expansion up the lower economic tiers and will cover 1/3 of the population on traditional socialized healthcare. Within probably 20 to 30 years, it'll only be the top 1/4 that will still be in the mostly private system. Socialized healthcare is taking over the US by default and necessity, its popularity will only increase by the year with the bottom 2/3 of the economic ladder.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#128
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not everyone holds the same absolute views on freedom of speech as those drawn up in the American constitution You are right about that. 99% of countries on Earth have weaker constitutional rights than the US in terms of Free Speech - if any right at all.

What you might call 'weak' might be called 'sensible' by others. At the same time, not everyone peddling the 'constitutional' stuff actually knows what it contains or how it applies. Imagine other countries copying the slavery-like rules for jailed persons... At the same time: freedom of speech goes about as far as what it causes; you are free to say what you want, but nobody has to give you a soap box or audience. T…

Or it might be called "weak" by others. I'm not an American, but I agree with him.

You say that one is "free to say what you want", but then immediately describe a case of a person literally saying what's on their mind and getting jailed for that. You're welcome to argue in favor of such censorship, but whether it does or does not have a valid reason, it's still censorship - and so not free by definition.

Oh, and the scenario that you describe is impossible in US. It is perfectly legal to start a private club that discriminates in membership, even against otherwise protected classes, and to advertise it as such. It only becomes illegal when you offer a public service.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#129
post #5
post #4

There is free speech, and then there is sensible. In NZ we don't use the perpetrators name and we don't want you looking at his messages. Get over it!

Well, we could just turn the entire internet off, then the messages would surely be hidden. Archive.is has a lot more than one page.

You joke, but I'm convinced our police and government know even less about technology than in Australia where they tried to ban encryption.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#130

Not everyone holds the same absolute views on freedom of speech as those drawn up in the American constitution. There is also plenty of opposing views of a "constitutionally limited government" that seems to be at the heart of American culture. Frankly, it's pretty disturbing how many Americans are unable to comprehend that their way isn't the "only way" that can be valid. The New Zealand Bill of Rights provides free…

These “freedom” and “liberties” discussions have been fascinating to read.
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