ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent • Hacker News Board

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#111

Post by rgbrenner » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 3:39 AM UTC

shard972 wrote: post #58

sebthedev wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which aspects of the New Zealand government's response do you object to? Off the top of my head, the government has: used the existing regulatory system to temporarily halt sales of the sort weapons used in the terrorist attack; introduced legislation into parliament to permanently halt sales of the sort of weapons used in the attack, which will proceed through the regular legislative process; announced plans to inve…

Maybe putting a teen in jail, now facing 10 years for sharing the video with an edgy comment.

Not just this 18 year old you referenced: https://gizmodo.com/18-year-old-arrested-in-new-zealand-for-...

But also these people:

22 year old: https://abcnews.go.com/ABCNews/zealand-man-22-arrested-alleg...

44 yo male: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&object...

This woman was arrested for hateful commentary (not distributing the video, just comments): https://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?objectid=12214654&ref=t...

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#112

Post by int_19h » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 3:40 AM UTC

erentz wrote: post #28

aphextron wrote: post #3

The government of New Zealand’s entire response to the shooting incident, as well as the public’s cheering for it, is the most disturbing Orwellian thing I’ve ever seen. The level of authoritarian curbing of freedoms that has seemingly happened overnight at the stroke of a pen should seriously concern anyone who values constitutionally limited government. I’m all for the debate, but as an American it’s unimaginable t…

> the most disturbing Orwellian thing I’ve ever seen. The level of authoritarian curbing of freedoms that has seemingly happened overnight at the stroke of a pen should seriously concern anyone who values constitutionally limited government. Woah hold the hyperbole. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. What actions specifically are you even referring to? The change in gun laws? Australia banned semi-automatic…

With respect to their semi-auto ban, I think the most questionable part of it was where the executive unilaterally banned them via Order in Council, so as to not wait for the legislative process (which is still ongoing). I'm frankly amazed that any modern democracy grants its executive an authority to outright promulgate binding legislation like that.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#113

Post by myrandomcomment » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 3:42 AM UTC

doldge wrote: post #82

shard972 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe putting a teen in jail, now facing 10 years for sharing the video with an edgy comment.

actions have consequences; whether those actions take place online or not. If what he did was hate speech, then it makes sense to charge him with it. That he did it online, or didn't realise that saying vile things would have undesirable consequences shouldn't excuse the behaviour. (N.B I think he should be charged with something, but I don't think prison time is a fair response to his actions).

Hate speech, is protected speech in my mind, no matter how abhorrent. The founding fathers of the USA had a reason for the 1st amendment. You milage may vary in your location, but at the end of the day, censorship of speech is very very slipper slope. This type of speech needs to be countered by education and by people standing up and saying "we will not listen", not a bureaucrat. Allowing the government to censor what you do not like is an aberration of personal responsibility.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#114

Post by int_19h » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 3:42 AM UTC

beachy wrote: post #36

aphextron wrote: post #3

The government of New Zealand’s entire response to the shooting incident, as well as the public’s cheering for it, is the most disturbing Orwellian thing I’ve ever seen. The level of authoritarian curbing of freedoms that has seemingly happened overnight at the stroke of a pen should seriously concern anyone who values constitutionally limited government. I’m all for the debate, but as an American it’s unimaginable t…

Almost everyone in NZ that I've talked to, which includes a few gun owners, has been in broad agreement with the moves to ban MSSA weapons - cheering for it is probably a good assessment. I cannot fathom how anyone could call that Orwellian, it feels more like plain common sense.

You're not likely to hear from people who are not in broad agreement right now for this exact reason - they'd be tarred and feathered by the supermajority in favor.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#115

Post by gruez » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 3:42 AM UTC

erentz wrote: post #34

incompatible wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they haven't actually done anything to try to restrict the shooting video, at least on foreign websites (it may be illegal under existing NZ law?) It suppose it wouldn't actually be hard for them to seize the copyright (perhaps with a new law if required) and start issuing DMCA takedowns or threats of lawsuits.

Common misconception that this is directed by the government, like Mubarak ordering the internet cut off or something. The Office of Film and Literature classification reviews and classified media material in NZ, similar to how the MPAA does for films in the USA. It can also classify materials as “objectionable” at which point they become illegal to possess or trade (except by certain request, eg if you’re an academi…

>Common misconception that this is directed by the government [...] The Office of Film and Literature classification reviews and classified media material in NZ, similar to how the MPAA does for films in the USA.

But the Office of Film and Literature Classification is literally a government agency, according to Wikipedia. Maybe it's staffed by bureaucrats rather than elected officials, but it's still government censorship. MPAA, on the other hand, is a trade association, and compliance with its ratings is purely voluntary.

>It must meet the definitions under the law that the office operators under. [...] It is checked by the ability of the judicial branch to evaluate these cases against the definition in the law.

I wouldn't count on this, given how vague the the law is, and how useless constitution is (see comment elsewhere in this thread).

>And the law can be changed by the citizens electing new representation and giving mandate for that to be done.

That's a final backstop, but if there's active government censorship going on, how can the results of the subsequent election be trusted?

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#116

Post by myrandomcomment » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 3:44 AM UTC

huntie wrote: post #37

erentz wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the most disturbing Orwellian thing I’ve ever seen. The level of authoritarian curbing of freedoms that has seemingly happened overnight at the stroke of a pen should seriously concern anyone who values constitutionally limited government. Woah hold the hyperbole. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. What actions specifically are you even referring to? The change in gun laws? Australia banned semi-automatic…

The ISPs aren't banning sites for kicks. New Zealanders have been arrested for distributing the video.

Great, please show me the act of parliament done in the light of day that made this illegal? The video SHOULD NOT BE WATCHED. It stand for everything I as a human abhor. However it is slippy slope, that leads to no good end.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#117

Post by kristianp » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 3:45 AM UTC

Interesting that https://www.archive.is/ is on the list. I find that a little hard to believe, but perhaps there were popular links to it being shared.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#118

Post by int_19h » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 3:51 AM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #40

aphextron wrote: post #3

The government of New Zealand’s entire response to the shooting incident, as well as the public’s cheering for it, is the most disturbing Orwellian thing I’ve ever seen. The level of authoritarian curbing of freedoms that has seemingly happened overnight at the stroke of a pen should seriously concern anyone who values constitutionally limited government. I’m all for the debate, but as an American it’s unimaginable t…

What did they do? I'm only aware of the gun bans, which strikes me as reasonable. The TSA, for example, with the random luggage and body searches strikes me as an order of magnitude more Orwellian.

The bans will, for the most part, be useless, as most gun bans based on features usually are. To see why, look up e.g. "MARS action rifle", or "lever release AR-15".

At the same time, countries that don't bother with stuff like that, but instead regulate who can own firearms much more stringently than US does - e.g. Czech Republic - are doing fine.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#119

Post by rgbrenner » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 3:51 AM UTC

erentz wrote: post #34

incompatible wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they haven't actually done anything to try to restrict the shooting video, at least on foreign websites (it may be illegal under existing NZ law?) It suppose it wouldn't actually be hard for them to seize the copyright (perhaps with a new law if required) and start issuing DMCA takedowns or threats of lawsuits.

Common misconception that this is directed by the government, like Mubarak ordering the internet cut off or something. The Office of Film and Literature classification reviews and classified media material in NZ, similar to how the MPAA does for films in the USA. It can also classify materials as “objectionable” at which point they become illegal to possess or trade (except by certain request, eg if you’re an academi…

Is that a typo in your first sentence? Saying the government is NOT directing an action, when it's a government agency makes no sense. It would be like me saying the US government doesn't have any control over boeing's planes because that's the FAA's job.

And the government is literally arresting people for distributing the video.

I'm really struggling to see how this could be construed as a non-government action.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#120

Post by adventured » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 3:51 AM UTC

erentz wrote: post #50

StavrosK wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did they do? I'm only aware of the gun bans, which strikes me as reasonable. The TSA, for example, with the random luggage and body searches strikes me as an order of magnitude more Orwellian.

Don’t forget the 60,000 strong force that is allowed to stop anyone within 100 miles of a border, ask for papers, and put anyone they like, including American citizens in jail without trial or normal legal process, sometimes for years.

> put anyone they like, including American citizens in jail without trial or normal legal process, sometimes for years.

So in a country of ~330 million, with 32 million flights every year across the US, would you mind listing the total number of times that actually happens? Where people are detained for years with no due process by that 60,000 force. If something happens a few times per year at that scale, while being shameful non-the-less, it's a freak outlier in fact and is not a legitimate example of common outcomes to support your comment.