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ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

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Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#51

Post by huntie »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #45
huntie wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans are unable to comprehend it in the same way that the civilised world cannot comprehend enslaving another. Just as enslaving others is wrong, limiting free speech is wrong, and inherently contradictory. Limited speech is not free. It is time for the rest of the world to understand this, and the US could use a refresher as well.

Not even the USA permits unlimited free speech. Memorably the US once limited speech against speaking out against conscription - under the 1918 sedition act - which led to the now famous free speech quote of "calling fire in a crowded theatre". The US still has a crime of, and recent prosecutions for sedition! A crime abolished as a relic in some other places. Pot, kettle, black? :)

You need to reread what I wrote. I very explicity acknowledged that the US has problems with freedom of speech. Just the other day an executive order was signed in an attempt to restore free speech at public universities.

The US constitution is very clear in its wording on free speech: "Congress shall make no law [...] abridging the freedom of speech". It is unfortunate that our judiciary has chosen to turn a blind eye to this and many other affronts to the rights of American citizens.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#52

Post by Jason_Genova »

doldge wrote: post #49
Jason_Genova wrote: post #41

EDIT: removed because I did not realize what kind of website the site I linked was.

trying to be charitable here; could you perhaps expand on the point you're trying to make by posting this exchange? It otherwise looks like a very insensitive, small-minded person responding overly aggressively to what is otherwise a very reasonable and restrained request from the NZ Police.

Sure, the meat of what I thought interesting was the initial email. I thought it was concerning that the NZ police were looking to get IP/email addresses of people merely conversing about the attacker.

The rest of the thread is just funny because the police respond in the best way possible to the site operator's freakout.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#53

Post by doldge »

Jason_Genova wrote: post #52
doldge wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

trying to be charitable here; could you perhaps expand on the point you're trying to make by posting this exchange? It otherwise looks like a very insensitive, small-minded person responding overly aggressively to what is otherwise a very reasonable and restrained request from the NZ Police.

Sure, the meat of what I thought interesting was the initial email. I thought it was concerning that the NZ police were looking to get IP/email addresses of people merely conversing about the attacker. The rest of the thread is just funny because the police respond in the best way possible to the site operator's freakout.

in what world is that concerning? They've been trying to discern if there was a cell of people around who harbour the same intent as this man, or if he was acting alone. New Zealand, a sovereign nation, has every right to request that information. The email was simply a case of whether the maintainer of the site would respond reasonably to a request from the NZ judicial system, or whether they would need to subpeona the information using the US judicial system. If that maintainer of that site is serving content to New Zealand, that it seems reasonable that he should be beholden to NZ laws.

As a part of there investigation into the act this man committed, they're looking at all activity around the event and the sort of people engaging with it. From a quick look at that website and the thread you linked, I expect (and at least hope), that most of the people who frequent it are now on a watch list after the events of last week.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#54

Post by [deleted] »

rbg246 wrote: post #42
huntie wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I agree that the US has an incarceration problem. We're certainly not perfect, and I think much of the problem is due to the US's drug problem. Regardless, comparing incarceration to slavery is disingenuous as slavery requires no wrongdoing whereas incarceration should require wrongdoing. As for my comparison of disallowing hate speech to slavery, it is a very valid comparison. The two are morally reprehensibl…

I don't see any problem with a government who is freely elected enacting laws that disallow hate speech. To assist with balancing these rights and restrictions there is an independent judiciary and court system that moderates these laws and works out whether they have gone too far.

[deleted]

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#55

Post by rgoulter »

MBO35711 wrote: post #14

My apologies. Might I ask a question, please? How do we otherwise stop the internet being hacked to support these vile creatures?

I'm concerned that "censorship of bad views" leads to radicalisation. e.g. if you have concerns that are morally unacceptable to express, the only place you can express those concerns are in morally unacceptable areas.

I think the hope of censoring bad views is to increase that friction before people get there; make it harder for 'ordinary' people to stumble across vile sites, and reduce access to vile sites to those determined to get it.

I'm concerned that having a hammer of "censorship makes this problem goes away" makes it easier to see other social problems as nails. One line to draw is "censor speech which directly incites or leads to violence". It seems the line NZ is drawing (and ISPs preemptively drew) is "objectionable" or "injurious to the public good". That seems much easier to abuse.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#56

Post by legostormtroopr »

doesnt_know wrote: post #12

Not everyone holds the same absolute views on freedom of speech as those drawn up in the American constitution. There is also plenty of opposing views of a "constitutionally limited government" that seems to be at the heart of American culture. Frankly, it's pretty disturbing how many Americans are unable to comprehend that their way isn't the "only way" that can be valid. The New Zealand Bill of Rights provides free…

> "Racial disharmony is illegal."

Why? Why should racial disharmony be illegal? It sucks when people don't like you, maybe they have good reasons, maybe not - but legislating "harmony" just sounds wrong.

Also, why are people allowed to loudly proclaim "white people are evil" loudly, and broadly, without issues - isn't that also racial disharmony?

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#57

Post by huntie »

dangerbird2 wrote: post #35
huntie wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans are unable to comprehend it in the same way that the civilised world cannot comprehend enslaving another. Just as enslaving others is wrong, limiting free speech is wrong, and inherently contradictory. Limited speech is not free. It is time for the rest of the world to understand this, and the US could use a refresher as well.

> limiting free speech is wrong Enabling the spread of terrorist propaganda, like the blocked websites have been doing by hosting the Christchurch shooting video. You'd better believe if websites like Twitter and Youtube didn't self-censor ISIS propaganda like they did in 2014, many countries would be having their ISPs block those sites.

Twitter's censorship was wrong, and those countries and ISPs censorship would have been wrong as well. Free speech is a human right and censorship is immoral.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#58

Post by shard972 »

sebthedev wrote: post #21
aphextron wrote: post #3

The government of New Zealand’s entire response to the shooting incident, as well as the public’s cheering for it, is the most disturbing Orwellian thing I’ve ever seen. The level of authoritarian curbing of freedoms that has seemingly happened overnight at the stroke of a pen should seriously concern anyone who values constitutionally limited government. I’m all for the debate, but as an American it’s unimaginable t…

Which aspects of the New Zealand government's response do you object to? Off the top of my head, the government has: used the existing regulatory system to temporarily halt sales of the sort weapons used in the terrorist attack; introduced legislation into parliament to permanently halt sales of the sort of weapons used in the attack, which will proceed through the regular legislative process; announced plans to inve…

Maybe putting a teen in jail, now facing 10 years for sharing the video with an edgy comment.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#59

Post by shard972 »

legostormtroopr wrote: post #56
doesnt_know wrote: post #12

Not everyone holds the same absolute views on freedom of speech as those drawn up in the American constitution. There is also plenty of opposing views of a "constitutionally limited government" that seems to be at the heart of American culture. Frankly, it's pretty disturbing how many Americans are unable to comprehend that their way isn't the "only way" that can be valid. The New Zealand Bill of Rights provides free…

> "Racial disharmony is illegal." Why? Why should racial disharmony be illegal? It sucks when people don't like you, maybe they have good reasons, maybe not - but legislating "harmony" just sounds wrong. Also, why are people allowed to loudly proclaim "white people are evil" loudly, and broadly, without issues - isn't that also racial disharmony?

Because during this period where global leaders are attempting to wipe out all races and merge us all into "one mocha colored race" there is going to be a lot of conflict so they need to get ahead of it and just ban anything racist out of fears it starts another race riot.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#60

Post by NickNameNick »

white-flame wrote: post #48
MBO35711 wrote: post #4

There is free speech, and then there is sensible. In NZ we don't use the perpetrators name and we don't want you looking at his messages. Get over it!

The hole in information caused by the censorship is causing people to come up with and perpetuate all sorts of crazy accusations and conspiracies about what "really" happened or why. The truth and fact of the what (video) and why (manifesto) is important clarification to the situation. Censorship is causing mystery, unrest, and false blame.

There is no mystery whatsoever.

The video is footage of someone murdering people, and the manifesto is a mess right wing islamophobia and strange call-outs.

Both are offensive both at a basic human level, and under the legal definition here in NZ.

There's no information hole - the contents of the video and the manifesto have been very widely reported.

What do you really expect to learn that you can't already learn from the reporting?

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