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Fuck The Vessel

thebaffler.com

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Re: Fuck The Vessel

#101

Post by SiempreViernes »

notyourday wrote: post #78
crazygringo wrote: post #29

I mean, I'm not a big fan of Hudson Yards... ...but this piece doesn't seem to make any coherent argument. Nowhere does she explain why she dislikes it aesthetically. She simply seems to dislike that it was designed to be Instagrammable (is that so bad for art/sculpture which is inherently visual?), has some bizarre thoughts on climbing staircases (she's against climbing the Eiffel Tower as well, does she hate exerci…

This seems like a good response: https://nypost.com/2019/03/23/the-architecture-snobs-got-hud...

Ha! He doesn't even use an actual picture of the finished thing, such is the depth of his interest in the subject.

And four days after opening is a rather short time to wait before declaring "mission accomplished" on something that is supposed to endure.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#102

Post by zwkrt »

notyourday wrote: post #98
zwkrt wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The houses she lambaste are almost exclusively upper-middle class and high-class houses. I think she is railing against lazy/incompetent architects more than the owners of the properties.

They aren't. They are from people who are stretching themselves into mortgages and those McMansions in the middle of nowhere are 250k-300k tops. They aren't three million dollar houses.

Yes but in the "middle of nowhere" these houses are owned by the middle-of-nowhere gentry. Saying something that is 300k is not expensive shows a lack of perspective I see a lot in this corner of the internet. Growing up in a rural town, my friends parents rented an apartment multiple towns over because they couldn't afford to live in my town (pop. 5k, surrounded by corn fields). All the problems we think are unique to cities or that we think are more important because there is more money involved really aren't. Everyone has the same problems at different scales.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#103

Post by atombender »

whistlerbrk wrote: post #15
yathern wrote: post #4

I visited Hudson Yards and the Vessel on the opening day. I don't find the Vessel itself to be as architecturally offensive as others, I think it's a fine idea. A seven story mall, however, is a preposterous idea. In a day and age when malls are dying. Especially in a city! Malls were made to emulate city centers, and Manhattan already is great to wander around. The whole experience is just so very clearly synthetic.…

I work at WTC and this is exactly how I feel about the area under the Oculus connecting the Brookfield Mall. It's like a scene out of Gattaca, a massive dizzyling underground mall/complex with no natural light filled with luxury shops that no one appears to actually shop at. Everyone walks through in a daze, seemingly impressed by the magnitude of the cavern but at the same I can't help to think they feel as equally…

> filled with luxury shops that no one appears to actually shop at

This [1] Reddit thread from the other day was interesting reading. Those empty luxury shops are definitely to a large extent ads for high-end companies who just want to have a New York presence. Same thing on 5th avenue and in airports.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/AskNYC/comments/b2n7y6/people_that_...

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#104

Post by zwkrt »

atombender wrote: post #100
zwkrt wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The houses she lambaste are almost exclusively upper-middle class and high-class houses. I think she is railing against lazy/incompetent architects more than the owners of the properties.

I think she's railing against bad architecture — and implicity the structures that enable them — more so than architects specifically. Insofar as these buildings violate principles of architecture, are these architects "lazy" for not pushing back? I don't know.

You are right, I was quick to be judgemental.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#105

Post by harimau777 »

tobr wrote: post #90
Thriptic wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "I hate you for having more than me and I want your stuff" is just straight up jealousy, and it should be easy to understand why wealthy people respond with hostility to this, creating a negative feedback loop.

Your quote is a straw man, but what does it matter if jealousy is involved or not? You can disregard any animosity stemming from social injustices with that logic. Women are just straight up jealous because men are paid more. Blacks are just straight up jealous because whites have longer life expectancy. LGBTs are just straight up jealous because straight cis people don’t have to conceal a central part of who they ar…

I think the difference is this:

It is right for oppressed groups to want to not be oppressed, it is not right for them to hate other groups because they are not oppressed.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#106

Post by rosser »

Thriptic wrote: post #92
tobr wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your quote is a straw man, but what does it matter if jealousy is involved or not? You can disregard any animosity stemming from social injustices with that logic. Women are just straight up jealous because men are paid more. Blacks are just straight up jealous because whites have longer life expectancy. LGBTs are just straight up jealous because straight cis people don’t have to conceal a central part of who they ar…

I think my interpretation of the thread was that anger towards people with money just for having money was legitimate. If your thought is that those people are actively retarding the ability of the poor to improve their situation, then I think you have some ground to stand on, but otherwise I don't think it is reasonable. I think it's ok to wish things were different; I think it's ok to be angry at a system; I think…

When (enough of) the people who benefit most from a system that's already biased in their favor unironically tell the folks on the far end of that benefit curve that they just need to work harder, they had the same opportunities as anyone else, it's their own fault, or whatever, I don't think it's terribly unreasonable for the people on the receiving end of that "wisdom" to develop a general sort of resentment for their "betters."

"Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." — Herman Melville

EDIT: Phrasing.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#107

Post by harimau777 »

scandox wrote: post #35
presscast wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how this contradicts, or even has anything to do with the parent post. It seems like you're reading excessively far into a turn-of-phrase.

That turn of phrase is the key indicator in the original comment. It means they think of poverty and wealth as unrelated phenomena. Generally it is our most casual statements that say the most about our underlying assumptions.

I don't think it's fair to assume the worst interpretation of what someone says.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#108

Post by [deleted] »

sigmaprimus wrote: post #24

Personally, I like the look of it and the idea of walking around it whilst taking pictures. I can appreciate the argument that it may descriminate against people with disabilities due to lack of elevators (if that is true). To be fair I also think it looks somewhat shwarmaish, but really what is wrong with that? After all its in the "Big Apple"!

[deleted]

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#109

Post by rosser »

harimau777 wrote: post #105
tobr wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your quote is a straw man, but what does it matter if jealousy is involved or not? You can disregard any animosity stemming from social injustices with that logic. Women are just straight up jealous because men are paid more. Blacks are just straight up jealous because whites have longer life expectancy. LGBTs are just straight up jealous because straight cis people don’t have to conceal a central part of who they ar…

I think the difference is this: It is right for oppressed groups to want to not be oppressed, it is not right for them to hate other groups because they are not oppressed.

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#110

Post by harimau777 »

icebraining wrote: post #59
cortesoft wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Find themselves” is intentionally passive, without implying any cause... the alternatives would be “got themselves into” or “were placed by someone else” The phrase was used to stay out of the debate about the cause, not to imply there was no cause.

But you can't separate the cause from the issue. It's like seeing some people admiring a trophy and saying "so what, I could make one myself in a few hours". The trophy is a symbol for something more, and so is having hundreds of millions of dollars.

I think there is potentially merit in the idea of the idea that the cause and the issue are related; in that the same system makes some people rich and some poor. However, I don't think that's relevant to whether it is okay to hate an individual unless they actively wronged someone.
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