How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions • Hacker News Board

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#121

Post by freeflight » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 4:41 PM UTC

akanet wrote: post #42

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "unfortunately"? Would it be better if every company that does a bad thing was forced to just close shop? If that be the case I'm pretty sure we'll have to shut down Tesla within a couple of years over their "Autopilot"/"Full Self Driving" claims.

"Do a bad thing" is a pretty major understatement of the degree of criminality we're talking about here. Over-representing the capabilities of Autopilot is a totally different thing that embedding a defeat device to defraud every national regulatory agency.

As convenient as it might be to burn VW at the stake for this as the "sacrificial lamb", that misses the point.

Because VW ain't the only ones who engage in these kinds of tactics, by now it seems like it's some kind of "open industry secret" how manufacturers try to get the best measuring results during environmental testing for those good ratings, which directly translates to good marketing.

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#122

Post by ip26 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 4:41 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #113

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still shake my head at this. If you wrote laws that said manufacturers of a particular thing had to do X, and expected them to adhere to it internally, and then paid expert testing facilities to validate those results, why would you EXPECT that you would have to do additional testing to validate the validation? And further more, why would you think that merely testing the test would lead to a different result? You…

Nobody charged the EPA with ensuring adherence to some made up test cycle, but to the emission limits. If the test cycle is your approximation of real world behavior, it is highly negligent to never confirm that real world results actually match the approximation! This is science 101.

I'm not a test engineer but work closely with them- two of their core ongoing job functions are monitoring real world performance to find test escapes, and adapting the tests to more closely drive real world performance.

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#123

Post by calaphos » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

maccam94 wrote: post #59

justasimpleman wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My next car will be "no car at all". Even electric cars have huge externalities that you do not pay for, but your children, namely, the disposal of the batteries, pollution created by the manufacturing, costly extraction of rare earths etc. Instead we should heavily invest in high-speed trains.

Except lithium ion batteries are very recyclable, and rare earth elements aren't in limited supply, they're just usually very sparsely distributed.

The biggest problem with cars, at least in European cities is the amount of space they take. Despite rising rents, making some cities unaffordable for people working there, we still mandate parking spaces for every build flat and use large amounts of space for multi lane roads, tolerating emissions, noise etc. Electric cars don't solve most of that. Making it easier to live in cities without owning a car should be the focus, not electric cars

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#124

Post by fulafel » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #105

fulafel wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can live in solitude quite ecologically without a car too of course. Nudge =! force

"Nudge" is the 21st century version of "force", as it's been realized that "force" provokes backlash

It means a different thing.

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#125

Post by zafka » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 6:44 PM UTC

jordanbeiber wrote: post #90

Yaggo wrote: post #15

European here. My next car will be electric, likely a Tesla. The dieselgate is the reason why I'm not even considering Volkswagen's upcoming 'ID' family of electric cars. I've similar feeling about the whole traditional auto industry.

I drove a VW passat (bio/ngt gas hybrid) for years. This stuff pissed me of so much that together with the Exxon stuff I will never own a VW or a fossil ICE car ever again. I went for the Leaf as I can fit a double buggy in the trunk and it has a good enough range. Not cheap but it’s what I can do as a consumer in this liberal market economy. Good job, greedy bastards! :) Side note - using an EV have given me for the…

This whole imbroglio was a painful learning experience for me. For several years before I bought my used jetta TDI, I started looking into Bio Diesel. I still have 12 Jatropha Curcas trees in my back yard, which were to be the start of a possible startup. I am greatful for the learning experience, but I keep waiting for the wisdom that is supposed to make up a little for the aggravation of aging.

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#126

Post by close04 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:08 PM UTC

natch wrote: post #104

close04 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can’t just make bold claims and not back them up That's not how the burden of proof works. Tesla is claiming the following: > All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. > The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as…

It’s hard to discuss these things when both sides don’t have all the facts. Just as a basic background for what happens, please try this: sit in a recent Tesla, engage autopilot, and read what it says on the screen. Also try ignoring the advice the screen gives you (pretend you didn’t read the “fine” print as you call it, and see what happens when you try to let the car drive with no input.) Do this, then we can talk…

Unless the dashboard tells me why the Tesla website and marketing (not to mention its CEO) make all the false/misleading claims I don’t think we need to talk about anything else.

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#127

Post by jokoon » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

blattimwind wrote: post #75

jokoon wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no mask can filter particles

Filtering airborne particulates is pretty much the baseline reason to use masks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (However surgical masks aren't meant to do that, they're only meant to catch things expelled from you, not the other way around. So I guess your interjection is somewhat correct in that running around with a surgical mask does pretty much nil to improve the quality of the air you inhale.)

Do you have any link or description of such a mask?

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#128

Post by close04 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

natch wrote: post #109

close04 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but you are mistakenly evaluating it as patently false when you have absolutely no way to know, since it isn’t released yet. What makes it patently false is that Tesla hasn't proved it even after claiming "next year" for several years now. Even worse, they still don't and can't know if the system will ever be able to perform as described or if the hardware is enough as claimed. If the party making a claim doesn't h…

This is all a bunch of fake outrage. Words are written. Some people skip reading important parts of those words, and then blame Tesla for their own laziness or poor reading skills. This is basically what you’re doing, although maybe more as an apologist for others who don’t care to read or pay attention. I’m not even talking about fine print. The stuff that covers this is all very straightforward and not fine print a…

Yes... it perfectly reasonable to make claims that even the supplier of your HW refutes. Really says a lot about your willingness to say whatever it takes to get more PR and push a few more sales.

In the meantime Tesla is the only company with autonomous driving driver fatalities. Multiple. Unless you’re going to claim Tesla buyers are more predisposed to... laziness and inability to process information, then something is definitely wrong in the way the system is presented. Something other manufacturers and all their buyers get right. Mostly all others insist overpromising and underdelivering can be dangerous.

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#129

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:49 PM UTC

fulafel wrote: post #112

Someone1234 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should aim for 500 kg cars. So you want a Tesla without batteries? A single battery cell weights approx. 200 lbs (90 kg). The Model 3 has four. The total weight of the batteries is thought to exceed 1000 lbs (inc. housing, harnesses) or about 500 kg. Then add on all the legally mandated safety technology a vehicle from 1957 wouldn't have (front airbags, seat belts, windshield defroster/washer, taller seats, and…

Just take the Renault Twizy (a production 2 seater 500 kg ev on market since 2012) and try harder in the same direction. The regulations allow it. To preempt some protests - You could put a trailer on it for occasionally transporting more stuff.

[deleted]

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#130

Post by Yaggo » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:22 PM UTC

fulafel wrote: post #97

Yaggo wrote: post #15

European here. My next car will be electric, likely a Tesla. The dieselgate is the reason why I'm not even considering Volkswagen's upcoming 'ID' family of electric cars. I've similar feeling about the whole traditional auto industry.

Teslas are still huge in mass (2000+ kg) and space/dimensions compared to what's needed from a car, and have a correspondingly big carbon footprint from building the thing and batteries. We should aim for 500 kg cars. We could do a 4 person 500 kg car in 1957 after all (Fiat 500).

Model 3 weights 1600...1800 kg (SR/LR), not much more than similar spec'd ICE car.