Live data from Hacker News

At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

431–440 of 457 posts

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does homogeneous have to do with prison rehabilitation? I'm not attacking you, genuinely curious.

The unstated argument to all the homogeneity arguments I've come across (intended or not) is: "We are too bigoted for that to work here, we'd never allow the $OUTGROUP to have it that good", with a side-dish of "they'd be bigoted too, if they weren't homogeneous". When laid bare, it's an appeal to ignorance.

I can't speak for all those who've made homogeneity arguments, but I've made them before in the context of Norway and will say this:

Often, you'll hear people say something like, "Norway did X and it works, so we should do X in the U.S." These are typically fairly naive claims. Regardless of the normative dimension of the claim (whether X is worth doing in the U.S. in the first place), there is a non-trivial amount of complexity that is swept under the rug. For instance, NYC has twice the population of Norway. The U.S. really is significantly more demographically diverse than Norway (or, if this claim isn't good, then we can just say they are equally diverse, but at the scale of the U.S. this diversity increases complexity a non-trivial amount). The U.S. has a more fragmented legal system. Etc. Etc. Etc.

If a Martian were asked which nation would be easier to implement new policies in, maintain those policies, and have them bring about the desired end, which do you think they'd choose? I wager they would immediately choose Norway.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Britain under the Bloody Code, you could (and would) be hanged, or deported for the most trivial offences. The prevailing view was very much of the pour encourager les autres mould. Steal items worth 12 pence? Hanged. Lesser amount? Cut a hand off. If lucky, commuted and deported for indentured servitude in the colonies. Treason? Hanged, drawn and quartered. As we remember from history classes, stealing, murder an…

Your “if lucky” was, iirc, the much more frequent outcome. Now in the US if you come to the attention of a prosecutor, you get threatened with decades of prison in order to be plea-bargained down to something less horrendous. Formally these codes are very different, but the substance in both is people kept in line by dire threats that are mostly just held in reserve.

Actually it mostly wasn't. It eventually became the more frequent outcome at the end of the 17th century, as the profession - like juries - signalled their dissatisfaction with the laws. There were something ridiculous like 200 capital offences.

It was laws falling into disrepute with both the profession and juries, and transportation becoming the majority that led to much of the 18th century legal reforms that removed nearly all the capital offences.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#433
post #211
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less than 10% of prisoners in the US are in a privately run facility: https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/private-priso...

This focuses on comparing data from 2000 and 2016. From the article: > Since 2000, the number of people in private prisons has increased 47%, compared to an overall rise in the prison population of 9%. 2016 things changed a bit: > At the federal level, a 2016 Obama Administration policy shift to reduce reliance and ultimately phase out private prison contracts was reversed by Attorney General Jeff Sessions in Februar…

I picked that particular article because it wasn't especially kind to my point of view. Nevertheless, the last statement you quoted is speculation and we don't have any data to back it up.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#434
post #127
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison population rate (per 100,000 of national population) U.S. 655 Switzerland 81 Japan 41 http://www.prisonstudies.org/

Read my comment again. I didn't say anything about the overall prison population, just that private prisons have a very small share of overall US prisoners (especially in California, the state mentioned in the article). So I'm skeptical that privatization is somehow driving the prison policy.

Public prisons contract with a lot of private services, so it's harder to analyze than just looking at the privately managed populations.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==1) Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information, try again.== I used the person's own source to display the cherry-picked nature of their data, try again.

> I used the person's own source to display the cherry-picked nature of their data, try again. Or you know, you could use a reliable source of information to counter their argument instead of using the same crap to try (and fail) to prove a point..

I empathize with being mad at this subthread, but, respectfully, I think you're aiming at the wrong guy. Because, rhetorically, "you aren't even supported by your own source" is pretty powerful.

Also keep in mind that troglodytes like the racist in the room exist to waste the time of decent people. Doing actual research to beat on them means that they win.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "an activist group" do you mean "people against actual slavery"?

Calling servitude as punishment "actual slavery" is disingenuous to the point that I'm willing to call it a lie. You can't buy and sell them. You don't have them indefinitely. When they reproduce your don't own their offspring. They get sentenced to this servitude by society's justice system, not captured through conquest or purchased from foreign lands. Calling labor as punishment "actual slavery" is incredibly dism…

Historically slavery has certainly been term-limited in numerous jurisdictions. And private prisons certainly can, and do, trade away problem inmates.

You are dimly correct in that it is not identical to every other form of slavery practiced historically. But it's close enough for me--and I can only speculate as to your motives for splitting this hair.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "an activist group" do you mean "people against actual slavery"?

Calling servitude as punishment "actual slavery" is disingenuous to the point that I'm willing to call it a lie. You can't buy and sell them. You don't have them indefinitely. When they reproduce your don't own their offspring. They get sentenced to this servitude by society's justice system, not captured through conquest or purchased from foreign lands. Calling labor as punishment "actual slavery" is incredibly dism…

> You can't buy and sell them. You don't have them indefinitely. When they reproduce your don't own their offspring. They get sentenced to this servitude by society's justice system, not captured through conquest or purchased from foreign lands.

All of these individually are features of historical systems uncontroversially identified as slavery. The particular form of penal slavery at issue may be unique in combining all of them, but I don't see any coherent argument why that would make it into not-slavery.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the difference is that Norway is far more homogeneous and the intent to rehabilitate is sincere. On the other hand I feel like a lot of the criminal justice system in the USA is segregationist under the covers. When you look at it this way then it's working as desired.

What does homogeneous have to do with prison rehabilitation? I'm not attacking you, genuinely curious.

The replies I've seen to your question all seem to have a pretty negative framing. I'm going to try to give you an answer that isn't so negative.

Instead of using race as the example, let's use language.

You have three people. Two have spoken English their entire lives. The third grew up speaking French and learned English later.

They need to do something really hard to get right, something easy to mess up. Mistakes come at a high cost.

When the two English speakers work together, things work. They go smoothly. They can manage to overcome challenges and meet goals.

When they try to work with the French speaker, you see a lot more problems. It's frustrating. He does things they didn't expect. It is easy to feel like he's intentionally screwing things up.

Homogeneous demographic groups have an easier time all being on the same page. They spend less time and effort trying to bridge differences in experience, attitude, etc.

You get ugly terms like Mansplaining and Whitesplaining because "privileged" people -- people for whom life has tended to work -- often feel that their life works because they were taught the right information and if people who are having a hard time just had the same info, their life would also work. And then the person getting the info gets mad because they feel like they are being treated like they are stupid and not trying rather than like their life actually works differently because they are different and the world treats them differently.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#439

I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…

One thing that may be politically feasible would be to replace the prison system for non violent offenders with military boot camp. That way, you can get an education, discipline, and a sense of patriotism.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#440
post #195
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just punitive. Some (not all) people are broken, unfixable, and dangerous. The idea is to just isolate them from society.

I agree that a human can be 'broken', but broken people should get psychiatric care, not prison.

I agree, but at the moment, our psychiatric ability isn't at the level to be able to do that. We have less trouble building tunnels than reforming prisoners.
Post reply on HN