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At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

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Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#421

Post by moorhosj »

craftyguy wrote: post #403
moorhosj wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed.== That a gap exists is widely accepted. Why that is and what it actually means is widely disputed. From your Wikipedia source: "Nevertheless, greater variation in IQ scores exists within each ethnic group than between them." "there is a general consensus that the average IQ in developing countries is lower than in developed countries, but subsequent r…

What the actual fuck? 1) Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information, try again. 2) This comment thread is bringing out all the racists on HN.

==1) Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information, try again.==

I used the person's own source to display the cherry-picked nature of their data, try again.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#422

Post by insertcredit »

dang wrote: post #415
insertcredit wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also much lower IQs in the US prison population compared to Norway's. Combine that with the gangs in the US that effectively rule the prison system - is there such a thing as a shot caller in Norway ? - and there is no hope for any sort of rehabilitation to take place.

If you continue to take HN threads further into flamewar hell, we will ban you. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: actually, you've been breaking the site guidelines so badly and so consistently that I've banned this account until we get some indication that you sincerely want to use HN as intended.

Please go ahead and delete all my posts too, including this account. I'm done here.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#423

Post by moorhosj »

anth_anm wrote: post #405
moorhosj wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed.== That a gap exists is widely accepted. Why that is and what it actually means is widely disputed. From your Wikipedia source: "Nevertheless, greater variation in IQ scores exists within each ethnic group than between them." "there is a general consensus that the average IQ in developing countries is lower than in developed countries, but subsequent r…

> such as lack of basic infrastructure related to health and education Fight the welfare state and toss black moms into prison because they lied to send their kid to a better school (IIRC, 5 years. for lying about her address). Meanwhile rich white people are photoshopping their kids faces onto athletes. Fund schools with property taxes. Oh look, those mcmansion filled suburbs have better schools. Fight bussing (than…

==Criticize the south for resisting integration while NY has the most segregated schools in the country.==

Different actions can be criticized for different reasons. A quick google search shows that nobody is ignoring the segregation in NY schools [1]. In fact, how did you find out about it if it is being ignored?

[1] https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=segrega...

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#424

Post by bluGill »

ericfrenkiel wrote: post #410
bluGill wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it sounds bad when you put it that way, the psychiatric infrastructure that existed before was evil. As bad as things are for those who need help, they are probably better living on the streets than in those institutions. I knew someone who was in an orphanage (not the same as psychiatric, but similar problems existed there I just don't have anecdotes to share) in the 1920s. They would beat him with a chimney b…

What you are stating is 100% morally wrong - that it’s better for a mentally ill individual to be left to starve on the streets rather than a society that can afford to care for these individuals in a controlled environment? Anecdotal support of your argument is a logical fallacy, and can’t be the basis of policy selection.

Things are more subtle than that. There are a few who starve to death, but the vast majority do find support in the current system and their lives are better than it would be. As always it is complex.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#425

Post by qes »

LeftTurnSignal wrote: post #223
7952 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would much rather be beaten, banished, or shamed than go to prison. And honestly, I think I would rather die than be locked up for any amount of time. Yet all these punishments are seen as less humane than locking someone in a small room with scary people for years. It just shows how little people can really imagine what it is like.

A few of my friends have spent some time in jail / prison due to smoking pot and the "three strikes" rule along with it. They were in there ranging from overnight to a few weeks to months. One developed PTSD from it and has had major issues since he was released 15 years ago. The other one hasn't quite came back mentally either, will not talk about it and is so much worse off now than ever. After he was released, but…

Those sound like abnormally severe reactions, though in some locations life in jail or prison is much more severe - but in most of the U.S. it's not the violent, drug fueled rape-fest popular media might have you believe.

I spent 7 years in prison, most of it in a maximum security facility. I once spent 3 straight weeks on 23 hours cell confinement - no tv, no books, no other people aside from a guard walking by doing rounds. The other 1 hour was allowed in essentially just a larger cell.

I've known many other inmates - before, during, and after incarceration. No one was keen on going back, but I don't know anyone who developed any significant PTSD from their experiences, and no one who would choose literally death over re-incarceration.

I did know one guy who got PTSD after being shot 7 times by the police for trying to drive away from them. None from being in jail for a few months, though.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#426

Post by throwawaymath »

Fjolsvith wrote: post #258
throwawaymath wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misinterpreted their point. They don't mean rehabilitation as an ideal doesn't work. They mean rehabilitation as the goal of modern American incarceration has failed. People don't get rehabilitated. They become institutional criminals.

> People don't get rehabilitated. They become institutional criminals. This is a blanket statement and not realistic. I've been through the system and knew a lot of guys who abhorred becoming institutional criminals. Please cite sources to support your claim.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I was just talking about what happens in the aggregate.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#427

Post by make3 »

foobarian wrote: post #196
lb1lf wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rehabilitation IS societally useful. However, it does require that the prime focus is rehabilitation rather than punishment. In my native Norway, rehabilitation has been the focus to such an extent that foreign media come to do stories on the 'holiday camps' prison time is served in. It somehow works, though. Recidivism is very low. Here's a few examples on how inmates do their time -Education is encouraged - whether…

I feel the difference is that Norway is far more homogeneous and the intent to rehabilitate is sincere. On the other hand I feel like a lot of the criminal justice system in the USA is segregationist under the covers. When you look at it this way then it's working as desired.

maybe not in purpose, but thin vailed racism here, saying non white people don't want to really be readapted

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#428

Post by cameldrv »

ericfrenkiel wrote: post #412
cameldrv wrote: post #404

Prison is a huge problem. I'm not a criminologist or a psychologist, but there is a lot of truth to the fact that most people think and behave like the people that surround them. Our solution to crime is to surround you with exclusively convicted criminals for a few years. Worse, going to prison or even jail just wrecks your life. You lose your job, most likely your house, your family suffers hugely, and you have a b…

Like what exactly? You accurately describe the cause-and-effect of not prosecuting petty crime whatsoever and that prison is not a sufficient deterrent, so what would be “less severe, more immediate, and more ‘certain’” that would impel a miscreant to not commit a crime? Please provide a specific example.

I don't know. That's why I say we need to come up with them. It's not easy to reconcile our values with the obvious ones. It's not easy to reconcile our values with the current criminal justice/prison system either though. My point is simply abolishing or greatly scaling back the current criminal justice/prison system without a replacement doesn't address the needs of society that the current system (poorly) serves. Without some mechanism to dissuade antisocial behavior, you get anarchy for a brief period, and then people start organizing vigilante groups, and then the vigilante group becomes the government.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#429

Post by craftyguy »

moorhosj wrote: post #421
craftyguy wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the actual fuck? 1) Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information, try again. 2) This comment thread is bringing out all the racists on HN.

==1) Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information, try again.== I used the person's own source to display the cherry-picked nature of their data, try again.

> I used the person's own source to display the cherry-picked nature of their data, try again.

Or you know, you could use a reliable source of information to counter their argument instead of using the same crap to try (and fail) to prove a point..

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#430

Post by abecedarius »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #198
dalbasal wrote: post #126

I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…

In Britain under the Bloody Code, you could (and would) be hanged, or deported for the most trivial offences. The prevailing view was very much of the pour encourager les autres mould. Steal items worth 12 pence? Hanged. Lesser amount? Cut a hand off. If lucky, commuted and deported for indentured servitude in the colonies. Treason? Hanged, drawn and quartered. As we remember from history classes, stealing, murder an…

Your “if lucky” was, iirc, the much more frequent outcome. Now in the US if you come to the attention of a prosecutor, you get threatened with decades of prison in order to be plea-bargained down to something less horrendous. Formally these codes are very different, but the substance in both is people kept in line by dire threats that are mostly just held in reserve.
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