401–410 of 457 posts
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Do you know there are black people on this site?
Is this relevant to the discussion? Does it change anything of what I wrote and referenced? Why do you keep bringing it up?
Said a different way, is IQ relevant to the discussion? Why do you keep bringing it up?
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I feel the difference is that Norway is far more homogeneous and the intent to rehabilitate is sincere. On the other hand I feel like a lot of the criminal justice system in the USA is segregationist under the covers. When you look at it this way then it's working as desired.
Why do you think the intention to rehabilitate in the US isn’t sincere? Frontline did a report on people on parole. It’s a punishing system, even when you’re out of the systems you’re usually one drink away from being thrown back in It’s a very good example of something where all the individual players are trying, but so much of how the system works makes results be harsh and cruel
High recidivism (shows it's at least a failure), focus on punishment (mandatory minimums, etc...) for things like drug possession, cruel bail system, "tough on crime" judges, legalized prison slavery, heavy use of solitary confinement, outright criminal levels of cruelty, normalized prison rape, stigmatization of felons, etc...
They had prisoners fight california wildfires for slave wages. They justified it as it was voluntary and they were learning a skill.
Felons can't become firefighters in california.
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The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed. [1] US prisons are ~38% black. [2] Norwegian prisons aren't. Not to mention that in general, and without taking into account race, you don't expect the brightest to be in there. Ergo average IQ in US prisons being much lower than in Norwegian prisons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_S... [2] https://www.bop.gov/about/stati…
==The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed.== That a gap exists is widely accepted. Why that is and what it actually means is widely disputed. From your Wikipedia source: "Nevertheless, greater variation in IQ scores exists within each ethnic group than between them." "there is a general consensus that the average IQ in developing countries is lower than in developed countries, but subsequent r…
Worse, going to prison or even jail just wrecks your life. You lose your job, most likely your house, your family suffers hugely, and you have a black mark if you do try to get any legitimate job in the future. It requires a lot of resilience and ability to delay gratification to bounce back from that. Of course the lack of those characteristics is probably a big part of what landed the person in prison in the first place.
Prison seems pretty bad. On the other hand, there has to be some sort of deterrent to committing crime, and for the worst cases, the public simply needs to be protected from some people. You see the lack of this in SF now. The police don't act in cases of smaller misdemeanors like shoplifting or car breakins, and so they're rampant.
For people that have poor future orientation, prison isn't that great of a deterrent. If you're going to use punishment as a deterrent, it works much better if it's consistent and quickly follows the behavior to be extinguished. Being arrested and sentenced only with some probability, and perhaps days or months later just doesn't work all that well. If we take, for example, shoplifting, if potential shoplifters knew that the second they walked out the door of the store, with 100% probability, that they were going to get punched in the face and the stuff taken away from them, no one would ever do it.
I think we need to come up with punishments that are less severe, more immediate, and more certain.
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The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed. [1] US prisons are ~38% black. [2] Norwegian prisons aren't. Not to mention that in general, and without taking into account race, you don't expect the brightest to be in there. Ergo average IQ in US prisons being much lower than in Norwegian prisons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_S... [2] https://www.bop.gov/about/stati…
==The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed.== That a gap exists is widely accepted. Why that is and what it actually means is widely disputed. From your Wikipedia source: "Nevertheless, greater variation in IQ scores exists within each ethnic group than between them." "there is a general consensus that the average IQ in developing countries is lower than in developed countries, but subsequent r…
Fight the welfare state and toss black moms into prison because they lied to send their kid to a better school (IIRC, 5 years. for lying about her address). Meanwhile rich white people are photoshopping their kids faces onto athletes.
Fund schools with property taxes. Oh look, those mcmansion filled suburbs have better schools.
Fight bussing (thanks Biden). Criticize the south for resisting integration while NY has the most segregated schools in the country.
Extol the virtues of the great charter schools and lottery systems, while the rest of the kids are stuck in shit.
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So if rehabilitation is so effective maybe we can 'rehabilitate' people before they end up in prison in the first place :p. How do people end up deprived of education and counselling in the first place, and could that be remedied.
In many cases, the idea of rehabilitating people either before or after prison is nearly impossible. There are almost half a million people in the American prison system for drug offenses. If someone is released from prison for cannabis possession, they can likely drive a few hours to a place where it's perfectly legal (at the state level), and even encouraged by the culture. How could you possibly rehabilitate someo…
Go to prison for weed. Get out. Realize how fucked things are now that you're a felon on parole.
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Is this relevant to the discussion? Does it change anything of what I wrote and referenced? Why do you keep bringing it up?
Have you provided evidence that IQ has an influence on one's ability to be rehabilitated in prison? Said a different way, is IQ relevant to the discussion? Why do you keep bringing it up?
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No, it's only going to happen for all the people who would become criminals. Would you become a criminal if I paid you $75k for life afterwards, assuming the court found you were in poverty and needed the money (probably most criminals). I for one know I absolutely would not commit crimes no matter how much money you paid me.
I’m struggling to see how your argument isn’t that people are born criminals. If you pay people to commit crime, you get more crime. That’s irrespective of any bizarre immunity you personally think you have to the incentives. Imagine being poor and having a child. You are such a law-abiding fellow that you are going to watch your child struggle every day and maybe go hungry some nights when you could do one simple cr…
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It's not just punitive. Some (not all) people are broken, unfixable, and dangerous. The idea is to just isolate them from society.
> Some (not all) people are broken, unfixable, and dangerous. Yes, in many cases because of their exposure to our prison system.
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We used to institutionalize people, then we defunded the entire psychiatric infrastructure.
While it sounds bad when you put it that way, the psychiatric infrastructure that existed before was evil. As bad as things are for those who need help, they are probably better living on the streets than in those institutions. I knew someone who was in an orphanage (not the same as psychiatric, but similar problems existed there I just don't have anecdotes to share) in the 1920s. They would beat him with a chimney b…