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At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

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Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#271

Post by TimTheTinker »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #199
avenius wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC incarceration was a method started by christian monks, and the intention was that the incarcerated would use the time to reflect and contemplate his crimes - a form of rehabilitation. As you say, that certainly isn't what's happening today. Instead it gives criminals a broader network, and my impression is that it works sort of like a "crime school". But the US method of privatizing and profiteering off of impri…

The Bible records Joseph as being put in prison in Egypt c.1500 BCE. Peter is imprisoned in the NT c.30 CE. Perhaps you meant incarceration with a view to rehabilitation?

> The Bible records Joseph as being put in prison in Egypt c.1500 BCE.

Newer evidence strongly suggests the exodus took place during Egypt’s Middle Kingdom (c. 1450), dating Joseph’s deportation and rise to power at roughly 1900 BCE.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#272

Post by JustSomeNobody »

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #37
dabbledash wrote: post #16

Not commenting on the specific numbers, but maybe it shouldn’t be surprising that a year of college costs less than food, housing, healthcare, security, and programs combined?

As a non-American, what I find mostly surprising are these two things: 1) that a society that mostly believes that a system of private businesses competing in a free market is the be all and end all of optimal resource allocation end up having the most expensive health care, higher education and apparently, prison system in the world; that this fact does not trigger more thought and discussion; 2) that despite incarc…

You're missing the point. Prison, in the U.S., is a place to keep people that a certain segment of society doesn't like and would prefer to keep oppressed.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#273

Post by ewzimm »

darepublic wrote: post #249
lb1lf wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rehabilitation IS societally useful. However, it does require that the prime focus is rehabilitation rather than punishment. In my native Norway, rehabilitation has been the focus to such an extent that foreign media come to do stories on the 'holiday camps' prison time is served in. It somehow works, though. Recidivism is very low. Here's a few examples on how inmates do their time -Education is encouraged - whether…

So if rehabilitation is so effective maybe we can 'rehabilitate' people before they end up in prison in the first place :p. How do people end up deprived of education and counselling in the first place, and could that be remedied.

In many cases, the idea of rehabilitating people either before or after prison is nearly impossible. There are almost half a million people in the American prison system for drug offenses. If someone is released from prison for cannabis possession, they can likely drive a few hours to a place where it's perfectly legal (at the state level), and even encouraged by the culture. How could you possibly rehabilitate someone from something with those kinds of mixed messages?

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#274

Post by jimbokun »

icedchocolate wrote: post #111
bko wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re 1: In regards to health care, US public spending on health care is similar to that of other western countries, although it does spend more on private. Make of that what you will but saying that the US doesn't spend on public healthcare is just incorrect. > While the U.S. has similar public spending, its private sector spending is triple that of comparable countries [0] Same is true about public eduction > In 2014,…

Re: Healthcare, that’s not true. The US spends more on health care per capita than many systems with free healthcare (Australia, UK, Canada). You pay the most and receive the least. Like the previous commenter, I am increasingly surprised that this system is still supported, instead of one that costs less and provides more (e.g. the fact that states bargain with drug companies individually, rather than federally, mea…

"I am increasingly surprised that this system is still supported"

It is NOT supported, at least not by the citizens of the United States.

It is supported by the corporations, lobbyists, and outright purchased politicians of the United States.

The simple answer to most of these questions about "why doesn't the United States..." is because we no longer have a functioning democracy.

See Citizens United, electoral college, gerrymandering, 2 Senators for states with populations smaller than an average city, social media engineering by foreign actors, Mitch McConnell blatantly ignoring the Constitution with no repercussions...

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#275

Post by hannasanarion »

insertcredit wrote: post #261
foobarian wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the difference is that Norway is far more homogeneous and the intent to rehabilitate is sincere. On the other hand I feel like a lot of the criminal justice system in the USA is segregationist under the covers. When you look at it this way then it's working as desired.

Also much lower IQs in the US prison population compared to Norway's. Combine that with the gangs in the US that effectively rule the prison system - is there such a thing as a shot caller in Norway ? - and there is no hope for any sort of rehabilitation to take place.

Maybe if we actually took care of people ant taught them how to make a living on their own, they wouldn't have to rely on gangs for protection.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#276

Post by wtdata »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #253
whack wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically enough, long term imprisonment is quite possibly the worst way of inflicting punishment, while simultaneously being more cruel and antithetical to rehabilitation. Whatever our goals, there are surely better ways of achieving them. https://outlookzen.com/2016/06/18/we-need-cruel-and-unusual-...

> Whatever our goals, there are surely better ways of achieving them. I thought the goal was to make the most money off of minorities?

Assuming the term minority is being used (as it normally is) as meaning a group of society considered oppressed by some, one should remember that men are by far and large the most incarcerated group.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#277

Post by europsucks »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #65
fxj wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is that all three sectors that you cite, health care, higher education and prison system, there is no free market but they are oligopols where only a small number of big players can lever their weight and keep others out.

Is that not just a "no true Scotsman" argument? "there is no free market but they are oligopols" There used to be 12 private prison companies in 2000 but it appears there are only 3 now. The start of the journey was privatization of prisons. This is where that path has currently led. It is what it is, ergo free market didn't work?

Arguably there is only one customer - the government. So maybe it is impossible in this case to create a free market.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#278

Post by jordanbeiber »

golergka wrote: post #236
jordanbeiber wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the end it’s all down to people. Elected people in government or not so elected entrepreneurs. Pick you poison. :) Violence is a consequence of many factors, and in a decent democracy having it monopolized with the governement we have elected is probably a good thing. The great thing is that we have history as a reference and I think we should use it. I’m not aiming for the extremes here, but rather life and livin…

> Elected people in government or not so elected entrepreneurs. I'll pick different entities competing with one another over a monolith. > Violence is a consequence of many factors, and in a decent democracy having it monopolized with the governement we have elected is probably a good thing. Never said it wasn't. But the entity that monopolizes it should be as small as possible. > Why is the worlds most happy nations…

I find the ”competition” argument quite interesting.

From what I have experienced so far through life it looks like this supposedly healthy competition leads to variants of VW & co behaviour down the line.

I see very few exceptions from my northern europe socialist bubble.

When it comes to:

- School - Health - Police - fire & rescue services - etc, whatever you would consider part of welfare

I want the best, not a choice.

”Sir, you’re having a heart attack. Would you like the best treatment, or can we offer you this more competetive offering at a discount?”.

It’s just, to me, a really odd way of viewing a society.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#279

Post by leetcrew »

mrsuprawsm wrote: post #216
muse900 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. You have to think the scale though. US is not the same as e.g Sweden and can't be the same. The amount of benefits you get in Scandi countries or Europe in general against the US are massive. At the same time you have to think that the US is a country of 330m people compared to an average EU country of 10-20m people. In the UK whilst there is free healthcare etc and its a country of 66m, the healthcare ha…

>In the UK whilst there is free healthcare etc and its a country of 66m, the healthcare has been getting worse and worse. This is largely a consequence of chronic underfunding, a deliberate political choice by the Conservative party.

is it possible to define "underfunded" in an objective way? people inevitably die, and an individual's life can usually be extended at least a little by a marginal increase in spending. what would it take for you to not consider the system "underfunded"?

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#280

Post by europsucks »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #96
CraigJPerry wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that not just a "no true Scotsman" argument? "there is no free market but they are oligopols" There used to be 12 private prison companies in 2000 but it appears there are only 3 now. The start of the journey was privatization of prisons. This is where that path has currently led. It is what it is, ergo free market didn't work?

Why are there private prison companies to begin with? There are, in my opinion, certain aspects of government, which never should be outsourced for private gain. A prison company being one of the most extreme examples.

Why exactly, though?

If other companies can satisfy the needs of the state, why not prisons? You wouldn't mandate that governments should build their own cars, for example?

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