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At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

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Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#201

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

minikites wrote: post #188
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "an activist group" I mean people who confuse work with slavery. People in prison eat what they're given, sleep when they're told, have (almost) no personal property and are at mercy of the administration on many other issues. Work is one of the greatest things a human being can do. Working doesn't make an otherwise free person a slave.

>Work is one of the greatest things a human being can do. Would you say that "work sets you free"?

Well, we all know that Godwin's law works.

I just didn't expect it to kick in so early in the discussion.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#202

Post by creaghpatr »

e40 wrote: post #190
dalbasal wrote: post #126

I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…

I think it's debatable, after generations of experience, that prisons make people more criminal. I've heard over and over again, in the words of criminals themselves (on podcasts, in new stories), that they got into the career part of being a criminal while behind bars.

Yeah, but of course they would blame the prisons, who else would bear responsibility...themselves?

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#203

Post by mrosett »

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #37
dabbledash wrote: post #16

Not commenting on the specific numbers, but maybe it shouldn’t be surprising that a year of college costs less than food, housing, healthcare, security, and programs combined?

As a non-American, what I find mostly surprising are these two things: 1) that a society that mostly believes that a system of private businesses competing in a free market is the be all and end all of optimal resource allocation end up having the most expensive health care, higher education and apparently, prison system in the world; that this fact does not trigger more thought and discussion; 2) that despite incarc…

I agree with the other comment - all of those have extensive government interference. The tax deductibility of employer health plans is at the root of a lot of problems with the cost of healthcare in the US.

It's also worth noting that despite the tremendous waste, at the very high end the US has no equal in healthcare or universities. That might not matter to the average customer though.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#204

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

dragonwriter wrote: post #194
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "an activist group" I mean people who confuse work with slavery. People in prison eat what they're given, sleep when they're told, have (almost) no personal property and are at mercy of the administration on many other issues. Work is one of the greatest things a human being can do. Working doesn't make an otherwise free person a slave.

> By "an activist group" I mean people who confuse work with slavery. You mean, people who confuse forced work with slavery.

I think that depends on definition of "forced".

If I stop working, I'll get kicked out of my house and will probably die of hunger. Does it mean I am forced to work?

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#205

Post by refurb »

icebraining wrote: post #103
silvestrov wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why isn't it a free market in the USA when free markets is clearly seen as the way things should be? Why doesn't lack of free market trigger a demand for reform of the sectors but only hand-waving excuses/acceptance? When credit card companies in Europe started to price gouge with high fees the EU responded by putting a cap on fees. Why does the US government not respond by putting a cap on prices for hospital tre…

> In Denmark when the doctor sends you to the drug store with a prescription for e.g. pain medication, the drug store is required by law to tell you about cheaper alternatives (with the same active ingredient) even if they do not stock the cheap alternative. All 50 US states have generic substitution laws, and 89% of all prescriptions are of generics.

In fact, the US has a higher rate of generic drug use and lower generic drug prices than Europe.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#206

Post by refurb »

fxj wrote: post #69
fxj wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is a compelling argument against gouvernment intervention, then why does it work so much better in europe where all three sectors are state-owned? The best example is switzerland, where the costs are a fraction of the costs in the U.S ( and which is not a "socialist" country at all).

Top pharmaceutical companies with revenue greater than $10 billion Rank Company 2016 USD billions 1 Johnson & Johnson NYSE: JNJ 71.89 2 Roche SIX: ROG 50.11 3 Pfizer NYSE: PFE 52.82 4 Novartis NYSE: NVS 48.52 Number 2 and Number 4 are swiss companies.

That’s just the legacy of acquisitions. A lot of Roche’s revenue (40%) comes from Genentech, an American company they acquired 10 years ago.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#207

Post by lostapathy »

7952 wrote: post #179
dalbasal wrote: post #126

I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…

I would much rather be beaten, banished, or shamed than go to prison. And honestly, I think I would rather die than be locked up for any amount of time. Yet all these punishments are seen as less humane than locking someone in a small room with scary people for years. It just shows how little people can really imagine what it is like.

Unfortunately if you go to prison in the US, odds are you will also get beaten and shamed.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#208

Post by danharaj »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #204
dragonwriter wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By "an activist group" I mean people who confuse work with slavery. You mean, people who confuse forced work with slavery.

I think that depends on definition of "forced". If I stop working, I'll get kicked out of my house and will probably die of hunger. Does it mean I am forced to work?

A lot of people hold that position

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#209

Post by minikites »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #204
dragonwriter wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By "an activist group" I mean people who confuse work with slavery. You mean, people who confuse forced work with slavery.

I think that depends on definition of "forced". If I stop working, I'll get kicked out of my house and will probably die of hunger. Does it mean I am forced to work?

Yes, you are forced to work and that's one of the main arguments in favor of a basic income.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#210

Post by slfnflctd »

lb1lf wrote: post #175
dalbasal wrote: post #126

I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…

Rehabilitation IS societally useful. However, it does require that the prime focus is rehabilitation rather than punishment. In my native Norway, rehabilitation has been the focus to such an extent that foreign media come to do stories on the 'holiday camps' prison time is served in. It somehow works, though. Recidivism is very low. Here's a few examples on how inmates do their time -Education is encouraged - whether…

It occurs to me that when your program results in a situation where recidivism is "very low", it might become much easier to distinguish those who fell upon bad circumstances from the ones with more deep-rooted mental issues-- like treatment resistant compulsive behavior, or perhaps even more importantly, psychopathic traits.

In my view, these are the real dynamos of the 'criminal world', where predatory traits are baked into their behavior patterns at a lower level. There are compelling opportunities for more research here (https://modlab.yale.edu/news/can-psychopaths-be-cured) and isolating variables is a good way to help move things forward.

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