Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would you support some kind of quasi governmental organisation to administer prisons? Independent but answerable to the government, (like the Fed). That would seem to address small govt concerns whilst avoiding the problems of the free market.
I don't know enough about american prison system to have an informed opinion. My argument was about the principle and objectives I (or, generally speaking, a fiscal conservative) base my opinions on, not prisons in particular.
At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard
171–180 of 457 posts
Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard
#172I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…
Prison startup: you pay the government, not the government you. You then force the people to CREATE VALUE and work for other labor-intensive work (e.g. cleaning, construction, ...)
Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard
#173I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…
> At the very least, rehabilitation doesn't work very well. WHAT! > Rehabilitation sounds societally useful, but the failures have been overwhelming. Justice? Deterrence? WHAT! Mind sharing some sources? IMHO you have it completely backwards. I can point to plenty of European countries (Norway, Germany, Netherlands, etc.) that focus on rehabilitation, not punishment. Their recidivism and overall crime-rates rates are…
False equivalency and ignorance of demographic truths.
Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just a bit of defense to this assumtion: When it comes to privatizing stuff that really should be handled by a welfare state the “optimal resource allocation” argument comes up frequently though. And it completely misses the point of supporting a welfare state. It’s of course not about being optimal with resources, it’s about providing the best standard of life to as many individuals as possible. Do this and the numb…
> it’s about providing the best standard of life to as many individuals as possible Which is also a nice thing to have but definitely not the main objective for people on "my" political side. Main argument for privatising stuff is not being optimal or not: it's the principle of making the government, which is the only entity with monopoly on violence, as weak and as small as possible. Think about it as a microkernel…
Violence is a consequence of many factors, and in a decent democracy having it monopolized with the governement we have elected is probably a good thing.
The great thing is that we have history as a reference and I think we should use it.
I’m not aiming for the extremes here, but rather life and living standard in the world and perhaps west specifically, post WW2.
The numbers are there, we can see the trajectories.
The numbers seem to say, pretty clearly — having a great standard of life seems to gain everyone (except for perhaps the ultra wealthy).
Think about this, and give me you view:
Why is the worlds most happy nations also the ones taxed the highest, and as such have the biggest government influences?
Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard
#175I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…
In my native Norway, rehabilitation has been the focus to such an extent that foreign media come to do stories on the 'holiday camps' prison time is served in.
It somehow works, though. Recidivism is very low. Here's a few examples on how inmates do their time
-Education is encouraged - whether it is to a learn a trade or getting a degree (presumably lectures are mostly followed via teleconference).
-Counselling is available to help you deal with whatever issues landed you in prison in the first place.
-As you near the end of your sentence, restrictions are gradually lifted to ease the transition back into society - lower-security units, daytime leave to report to work, halfway houses where inmates can live a normal-ish life in the daytime but need to observe a curfew in evenings/nights.
-After you get out, you have regular one on ones with the social services, helping you find a place to stay, work, family counselling if required etc.
-Companies are offered part of your pay refunded by the state for a limited time if they hire you.
All in all, I guess it can be argued that our pendulum has swung too far towards rehabilitation - but if the point of prison is to reduce the long-term risk and cost of crime, we're doing reasonably well.
Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is that not just a "no true Scotsman" argument? "there is no free market but they are oligopols" There used to be 12 private prison companies in 2000 but it appears there are only 3 now. The start of the journey was privatization of prisons. This is where that path has currently led. It is what it is, ergo free market didn't work?
Why are there private prison companies to begin with? There are, in my opinion, certain aspects of government, which never should be outsourced for private gain. A prison company being one of the most extreme examples.
Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard
#177I have a cousin 2 years younger than me who's getting out of prison today . He just finished a 2 year stint for violating probation. When you get caught drunk driving with a gun in the car, then tend to send you back behind bars. In reality, he had two other offenses in the time before that, which should have been enough. His first sentence was 7 years for theft. He was part of a group of ~ 20 year olds that were bre…
When are the Americans going to realise you can't punitively punish someone and not reap of profound negative consequences (re-offending, home-breaking etc.).
Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
There will always be an activist group which will tell you that forcing people work is inhumane and violates their freedom of expression.
By "an activist group" do you mean "people against actual slavery"?
People in prison eat what they're given, sleep when they're told, have (almost) no personal property and are at mercy of the administration on many other issues.
Work is one of the greatest things a human being can do. Working doesn't make an otherwise free person a slave.
Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard
#179I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…
Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think it's debateable, after generations of experience, that prisons make people more criminal. At the very least, rehabilitation doesn't work very well. From comments read on the Internet it seems there are plenty of differences between American and European prisons, even more to the Northen European countries. There they seem to be able to rehabilitate the people (most of the time), unlike other places. I think…
I think this is more romantic “grass is greener” thinking. It’s pretty hard to compare effectiveness of prisons for rehabilitations across countries. There is some research [0], and there is a lot of limitations in data, but it seems like Europe isn’t doing so well on recidivism. Or at least France and Germany seem to also struggle with people leaving and then reentering prison. If I had to guess, I would say that pr…