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Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#101

Post by natch »

outwebbyyou wrote: post #94
gamblor956 wrote: post #4

Tesla is suing former employees for stealing its logistics (warehousing, inventory control, etc.) trade secrets. Tesla has to show that Zoox is using the information the employees allegedly stole. In a nutshell, Tesla would have to show similarities between its logistics processes and Zoox's. ( https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Trade_Secrets_Prote... for a good summary) But given the shitshow that is Tesla's l…

> Tesla alleges former employee Guangzhi Cao, who worked on the company’s Autopilot driver assistance feature, stole source code before abruptly quitting in January and taking a job XPeng. Tesla refers to the company as XMotors in its complaint. Why companies are still using engineers from China to work on trade secrets is beyond me. Even if they start off clean, they can be easily persuaded to steal by the Chinese c…

As someone who has flown back and forth to/from China a lot, it’s remarkable to the point of being a well known joke that the airplanes coming to the US have an astounding number of pregnant women, and the airplanes flying back to China have an astounding number of newborn infants.

The reason, of course, is so that the baby can be born in the US and thereby obtain the full rights of US citizenship.

So some of these Chinese engineers you speak of may be American born US citizens, although they’re wholly raised in and possibly completely loyal to China. The sad thing is that considering the culture someone was raised in (which seems possibly fair, though I’m not 100% certain it’s defensible) comes indistinguishably close to considering race (absolutely not fair in any way). The societal dialog exploring this distinction is fraught to the point that I am uncomfortable even making this comment, and I doubt HR departments are prepared to encode policies that are so perilous.

One escape hatch would be the US security clearance system, which is no doubt allowed to take many factors into account. But that wouldn’t apply here.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#102

Post by dd36 »

gamblor956 wrote: post #66
Klathmon wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I could be wrong but I don't think that before the tweet there were any previous filings or announcements saying that Tesla would build 500,000 cars this year. I'm fairly certain that during the Q4 2018 earnings call they talked about expecting to deliver between 350,000 and 500,000 cars in 2019. I'm not a lawyer, I don't know much about public companies or regulations, so I don't know if that counts or not (or if s…

The problem isn't that the 500k was never said before. The problem was that the original use of the 500k was part of a ranged estimate with a great deal of uncertainty (approximately 30-45%), but Musk's original problematic tweet eliminated all of that uncertainty. The elimination of uncertainty is material information to investors. And the original tweet was also simply wrong. Musk had to correct in a followup tweet…

From the Tesla court filing: "As noted above, on January 2, 2019, Tesla filed a Form 8-K reporting its Q4 2018 production of “25,161 Model S and X vehicles, consistent with our long-term run rate of approximately 100,000 per year.” Then, during the January 30 Earnings Call, Musk stated that Model 3 production in 2019 would be on the order of “350,000 to 500,000” vehicles. Tesla similarly disclosed in its January 30 Update and February 19 Form 10-K that it was “targeting annualized Model 3 output in excess of 500,000 units sometime between Q4 of 2019 and Q2 of 2020.”"

So 2019 production estimate was 450,000-600,000 and the SEC felt compelled to file for contempt over a tweet that said about 500,000 units...

This is so frivolous, it's embarrassing.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#103

Post by ABCLAW »

elliekelly wrote: post #52
sigmar wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If anything, Zoox used the information allegedly taken from Tesla as an example of what not to do logistically, and trade secrets law doesn't let you sue for that. Any other lawyer want to sound off on if this is right? Because it doesn't seem right. If I'm using stolen trade secrets to decide what not to do, I'm still making very good use of that information. Edit: added "other" to first sentence since original com…

Also an attorney and I read the statute differently than parent comment. The Economic Espionage Act[1] criminalizes the misappropriation of information, not the use of misappropriated information. In relevant part: > (a) Whoever, with intent to convert a trade secret, that is related to a product or service used in or intended for use in interstate or foreign commerce, to the economic benefit of anyone other than the…

Also also a lawyer. There's a number of civil and criminal sources of liability triggered by the fact situation.

I think the OP is referring to the requirements for the sources which trigger 'big dollar' litigation remedies.

The Fenwick memo is pretty helpful - it distinguishes between Wrongful Use and Wrongful Acquisition. Most of the big remedies require Wrongful Use to be demonstrated.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#104

Post by shereadsthenews »

zaroth wrote: post #95
shereadsthenews wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is not anywhere near the largest battery maker and their product is made to the exact same specifications as off-the-shelf Panasonic batteries, by Panasonic, in a Panasonic factory with a big Tesla sign on it. But what I'd love to know is how you came to believe any of that stuff you wrote.

The batteries in the Model 3 are not in fact off-the-shelf Panasonic batteries. Tesla has the largest single battery factory, but they seem to be second behind CATL in the latest annualized production rates. CATL shipped 7.3GWh in 2018-Q2, I can’t find Q3 numbers but I did find one site saying “monthly installed battery capacity with 1.47GWh, 2.45GWh, 2.49GWh and 3.4GWh produced respectively from August to November i…

The global lead-acid battery market is still much larger than the global li-ion market, so your statement that Tesla is the world's largest battery maker has degraded into Tesla is the world's 2nd-largest maker of Li-ion batteries for the EV market, a much weaker statement.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#105

Post by frosted-flakes »

dd36 wrote: post #98
gamblor956 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The judge will definitely not rule that the SEC is in "clear overreach" since the 500k tweet is only one of the many tweets they cite in their filing as evidence that Elon has violated his settlement agreement. The 500k tweet was just the final straw. Also, with respect to the "previously published numbers," Tesla provided a range of 360k to 500k. A large range, indicating significant uncertainty. Musk's tweet narrow…

Doubtful. The SEC tried to pad its complaint in its reply. That's not an indication of strength.

What motivation would they have for doing that? Genuinely curious (I don't care either way).

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#106

Post by Tomte »

zaroth wrote: post #74

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the…

> without a fair share of fuckups along the way

My problem with Tesla is the same I have with Uber and AirBNB: it's not that they royally fuck up now and then, it's not even that they fuck up regularly.

It's that their fuckups all betray their moral turpitude.

They do not "fuck up" as in "security breach" or "bad bugs".

They "fuck up" as in "lie, steal, cheat" and yes, arguably even "kill".

I don't care which great achievements these companies may bring us. Or have already brought us. They need to die. Other companies can pick up those achievements and iterate on them.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#107

Post by dd36 »

frosted-flakes wrote: post #105
dd36 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doubtful. The SEC tried to pad its complaint in its reply. That's not an indication of strength.

What motivation would they have for doing that? Genuinely curious (I don't care either way).

So the complaint is filed then Tesla can provide an answer and the SEC a reply to that answer. A reply is usually brief and reiterates points made in the original complaint. Here, however, the SEC introduced new arguments in its reply. This usually happens because the defendant's answer was strong. Therefore, the SEC seemingly believed its original complaint was insufficient. As such, the SEC is at a higher probability of looking bad here.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#108

Post by rconti »

gamblor956 wrote: post #79
zaroth wrote: post #74

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the…

Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. Panasonic manufactures the battery cells for Tesla and most of the market. Tesla assembles the cells into batteries. It would be accurate to say that Tesla is the largest manufacturer of car batteries, b…

"one color and style .. with limited options" is simply incorrect, and your biases are showing. You're either being disingenuous or not affording the same luxury to Tesla that other manufacturers get. Plenty of manufacturers charge more for different colors, and, by the way, that's considered an "option".

It's also an assumption that they had to (try to) close all their stores to make the $35k Model 3 possible.

The fact of the matter is, every manufacturer wants to sell products for the highest overall profit (unit profit * volume) possible, and lower overhead. The fact that they previously refused to sell (presumably lower margin) short-range 3s does not mean it wasn't possible. Maybe it wasn't possible. Or maybe they'd rather make $100 per unit on a mid-range than $1 per unit on a short-range.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#109

Post by zaroth »

shereadsthenews wrote: post #104
zaroth wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The batteries in the Model 3 are not in fact off-the-shelf Panasonic batteries. Tesla has the largest single battery factory, but they seem to be second behind CATL in the latest annualized production rates. CATL shipped 7.3GWh in 2018-Q2, I can’t find Q3 numbers but I did find one site saying “monthly installed battery capacity with 1.47GWh, 2.45GWh, 2.49GWh and 3.4GWh produced respectively from August to November i…

The global lead-acid battery market is still much larger than the global li-ion market, so your statement that Tesla is the world's largest battery maker has degraded into Tesla is the world's 2nd-largest maker of Li-ion batteries for the EV market, a much weaker statement.

Tesla claims they make 60% of all supply for the EV market specifically.

I believe this excludes plug-in hybrids and buses. It is also counting all Gigafactory pack capacity, which includes cells made by Pano in Asia that are assembled at Giga for Model S/X packs, so a bit squishy.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#110

Post by zeroxfe »

gamblor956 wrote: post #79
zaroth wrote: post #74

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the…

Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. Panasonic manufactures the battery cells for Tesla and most of the market. Tesla assembles the cells into batteries. It would be accurate to say that Tesla is the largest manufacturer of car batteries, b…

> Toyota and VW shipped 10 million cars worldwide last year without any logistics issues. Hell, most companies are able to ship their products without any controllable logistics issues.

These companies are shipping with more or less established infrastructure and supply chains that have been optimized over decades. Tesla has been building almost all of its infrastructure and supply chain from scratch (batteries, supercharger networks, software tech, etc.), while also getting cars delivered. And breaking tons of new ground in almost every area of automotive tech.

(You can argue that Torota and VW build infrastructure too, but almost all of it is incremental, and almost none of it is groundbreaking.)

> Why does Tesla get a pass for failing to do something that every other manufacturer gets right?

Nobody's giving them a pass. It just seems unreasonable to draw conclusions without understanding the entire context.

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