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Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

petition.parliament.uk

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Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#31

Post by rjmunro »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #23
boyter wrote: post #3

Not the most popular view, but if after a referendum politicians can dither about for long enough to make things painful then say "Lets have a do over" whats the point of actually voting? The whole thing just feels like an assault on democracy. The popular vote was to leave. If you put it to the people, then do what they ask. You can probably ask to join again later. Was the vote done with imperfect information? Prob…

The popular vote was a myth, sold by a series of lies. It was a choice between "do nothing" (remain), and "everything else" (leave). Some wanted a soft Brexit remaining in the common market aspects without freedom of movement (having our cake and eating it. The EU would have to be insane to accept this option), multiple harder forms of Brexit, and full WTO rules only Brexit wanted by only Rees Mogg and the other fool…

A lot of people voted no just because they didn't like David Cameron's government and especially its austerity package.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#32

Post by kilham55 »

The Barnier Robbins document was designed to produce political chaos followed by long extension . Second Referendum and Bingo still in EU. Establishment victory. Unfortunately there will be upheaval politically and economically this year . Just wait . Started today in Holland

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#33

Post by benj111 »

black-tea wrote: post #30
benj111 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor inner cities voted Labour, posh country areas voted Conservative. What a surprise. It isn't the hard core that win elections, its the swing voters. So no it isn't a surprise, and it isn't really relevant.

I was going for where intelligent people live. I don't think the brexit vote was clearly cut on Labour/Conservative lines.

My point remains, you aren't going to see a massive shift in leave/remain areas. If another vote were to happen, the result would hinge on a relatively small percentage of voters.

Ps I live in a probably leave voting area, so please don't tar all people with the same brush. >50% voted against remain, so calling them all less intelligent isn't helpful. We do have to get on again after this after all, and if there is a 2nd referendum, they might respond better to addressing their actual concerns, rather than insults.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#35

Post by benj111 »

kstenerud wrote: post #22
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> her political future depends on it. Her political future was obliterated when the first vote was lost by huge margin. She'd be out already but for the fact no one with a brain wants to be in charge during this farce - the bad smell would cover them too. If she chose to withdraw Article 50 and remain, she'd certainly lose yet again, though ironically quite likely by a smaller margin. The Tories have been split over…

Yes, sorry, I meant to say that she thinks her political future depends on it, not that it actually does. Although by now she's more likely just playing along because her colleagues won't allow her to rock the boat.

"thinks her political future depends on it"

Even that's putting it too strongly.

She's already said she won't lead the Tories into the next election. She's a massively divisive figure. She'll be remembered, but I don't think it'll be positively.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#36

Post by lorriman »

altairiumblue wrote: post #11
boyter wrote: post #3

Not the most popular view, but if after a referendum politicians can dither about for long enough to make things painful then say "Lets have a do over" whats the point of actually voting? The whole thing just feels like an assault on democracy. The popular vote was to leave. If you put it to the people, then do what they ask. You can probably ask to join again later. Was the vote done with imperfect information? Prob…

In general, you can't take a strictly advisory referendum with a win margin of a couple % to dictate your international policy for decades. More specifically, when the winning side has committed campaign violations and the UK's own National Crime Agency has found illegal foreign interference, maybe you should investigate further instead of driving head on. If you ask me, this was the "assault on democracy", not the "…

The win gap was at least 4%. (48 vs 52).

Further, the native population was far higher pro Brexit.

As for misinformation, I don't know any Brexiters who were voting based on Boris Johnson's obviously politically gamed claims from someone who is a Brexiter purely for political reasons (I don't think the population is as naive as you give them credit for, and presuming Brexiters to be stupid is BS fallacy), but on the basis that the EU is not properly democratically accountable and the Brit economic/business attitude and politics is not compatible with European ways (ie, high State control). We want to go back to a low paper-work, low-bureaucracy, liberally-inclined environment. Brexit is a start.

I have lived a significant proportion of my life in Europe, and the UK is not meaningfully European. It should have never have been a member, and has been a problem to the EU ever since. It should have been consulted on joining the EU at the very least, and it was not. Now that it has had 20 years of the EU, a 52% vote against remaining is significant.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#37

Post by benj111 »

lorriman wrote: post #36
altairiumblue wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, you can't take a strictly advisory referendum with a win margin of a couple % to dictate your international policy for decades. More specifically, when the winning side has committed campaign violations and the UK's own National Crime Agency has found illegal foreign interference, maybe you should investigate further instead of driving head on. If you ask me, this was the "assault on democracy", not the "…

The win gap was at least 4%. (48 vs 52). Further, the native population was far higher pro Brexit. As for misinformation, I don't know any Brexiters who were voting based on Boris Johnson's obviously politically gamed claims from someone who is a Brexiter purely for political reasons (I don't think the population is as naive as you give them credit for, and presuming Brexiters to be stupid is BS fallacy), but on the…

"The win gap was at least 4%"

That's a narrow gap. Demographics (Brexit voters tend to be older) could easily have eroded that lead by itself in the past 3 years.

"Further, the native population was far higher pro Brexit"

The native population tends to have a lower birth rate also eroding the lead. Plus what is your point here? I cant think of a reasonable reason for even bringing it up.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#38

Post by lorriman »

benj111 wrote: post #37
lorriman wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The win gap was at least 4%. (48 vs 52). Further, the native population was far higher pro Brexit. As for misinformation, I don't know any Brexiters who were voting based on Boris Johnson's obviously politically gamed claims from someone who is a Brexiter purely for political reasons (I don't think the population is as naive as you give them credit for, and presuming Brexiters to be stupid is BS fallacy), but on the…

"The win gap was at least 4%" That's a narrow gap. Demographics (Brexit voters tend to be older) could easily have eroded that lead by itself in the past 3 years. "Further, the native population was far higher pro Brexit" The native population tends to have a lower birth rate also eroding the lead. Plus what is your point here? I cant think of a reasonable reason for even bringing it up.

"The native population tends to have a lower birth rate also eroding the lead. Plus what is your point here? I cant think of a reasonable reason for even bringing it up."

Lol! Sure you can't.

Re: Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU

#39

Post by jimmux »

boyter wrote: post #3

Not the most popular view, but if after a referendum politicians can dither about for long enough to make things painful then say "Lets have a do over" whats the point of actually voting? The whole thing just feels like an assault on democracy. The popular vote was to leave. If you put it to the people, then do what they ask. You can probably ask to join again later. Was the vote done with imperfect information? Prob…

The Australian comparison would be something like the republic referendum in 1999. As a constitutional change, the law required both an absolute majority at the federal level, and a majority in the majority of states.

If the Brexit referendum was held under the same rules (pretty reasonable for a change of this magnitude), with countries for states, then the Brexit referendum would not have passed due to Scotland and Northern Ireland voting to remain.

There's no such thing as perfect democracy, so we have rules to protect ourselves from ourselves. I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, but I think we shouldn't pretend that democratic processes are perfect.

As an aside, it's interesting that you mention double jeopardy laws, because Australia seems to be more relaxed about that than most places - because sometimes better information becomes available.

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