Japan plans to lower age of adulthood to 18 (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan plans to lower age of adulthood to 18 (2018)

#21

Post by barry-cotter » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 12:51 PM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #18

pattusk wrote: post #7

> But teenagers will still be banned from smoking, drinking alcohol and gambling until they are 20. The logic of this escapes me. Although the article does not seem to mention it, it seems probable that the voting age will likely also be lowered to 18. This means teenagers will be considered old enough to make decisions that will affect the entire country, all the while being considered too immature to make decisions…

If smoking, alcohol, and gambling had the same affects on all fully grown adults as it did on people with developing minds we probably wouldn’t have them. They’re at a much higher risk for addiction, much higher risk for permanent brain impairment from alcohol, imagine if those risks and effects were instead just the baseline for everyone. For example, somehow even moderate drinking at 30 would permanently damage you…

Ok, let’s ban drinking for under 30s. Alcohol is clearly far more harmful than cannabis and I sincerely doubt it’s more harmful than speed or medicinal heroin, all of which we ban. If we’re going to ban things for adults why 21 and not 30?

Re: Japan plans to lower age of adulthood to 18 (2018)

#22

Post by laurieg » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 12:52 PM UTC

pattusk wrote: post #7

> But teenagers will still be banned from smoking, drinking alcohol and gambling until they are 20. The logic of this escapes me. Although the article does not seem to mention it, it seems probable that the voting age will likely also be lowered to 18. This means teenagers will be considered old enough to make decisions that will affect the entire country, all the while being considered too immature to make decisions…

I lived in a Japanese university dormitory for a year. Alcohol is absurdly easy for under 20's to purchase. There is essentially no checking of IDs in shops. Most shops have a touch screen point of sale system that will ask "Are you over 20?" if you buy an alcoholic product. Some of those systems only have the "Yes" answer button...

Re: Japan plans to lower age of adulthood to 18 (2018)

#23

Post by Tehnix » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 12:52 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #19

pattusk wrote: post #7

> But teenagers will still be banned from smoking, drinking alcohol and gambling until they are 20. The logic of this escapes me. Although the article does not seem to mention it, it seems probable that the voting age will likely also be lowered to 18. This means teenagers will be considered old enough to make decisions that will affect the entire country, all the while being considered too immature to make decisions…

In the US at least, the 21 yo drinking age is mostly a wholly pragmatic law [EDIT: laws. It's state by state but there was a big federal stick attached to highway funding.] to reduce teenage drunk driving (which affects more than the individual). Tobacco sales is mostly 18 in the US (although a few states are 21). Casinos also vary although the drinking age restricts It's hard to make an intellectual case for dispari…

I would argue that it actually ends up having the opposite effect. The culture towards drinking that the US has, means that young people either have to hide really hard that they are in fact drinking, or that they never learn control before much later in life, because they go all in when they are 21. This, funnily enough is after they have had their drivers license for some years, and those two mix bad together (lack of experience drinking, and a drivers license).

I contrast this to my own country, Denmark, where we are much more lax about drinking. You can buy alcohol lower than 16% at age 16, and you can get your drivers license at 18. Parents accept that people will probably slowly start out drinking before this though, and are therefore more involved with this aspect of young people’s lives. This means they also has a chance to supervisor, guide and help their children manage this new experience of being drunk, and educate them on how it works.

At least that’s my armchair take on it :)

Re: Japan plans to lower age of adulthood to 18 (2018)

#24

Post by ghaff » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 1:03 PM UTC

Tehnix wrote: post #23

ghaff wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US at least, the 21 yo drinking age is mostly a wholly pragmatic law [EDIT: laws. It's state by state but there was a big federal stick attached to highway funding.] to reduce teenage drunk driving (which affects more than the individual). Tobacco sales is mostly 18 in the US (although a few states are 21). Casinos also vary although the drinking age restricts It's hard to make an intellectual case for dispari…

I would argue that it actually ends up having the opposite effect. The culture towards drinking that the US has, means that young people either have to hide really hard that they are in fact drinking, or that they never learn control before much later in life, because they go all in when they are 21. This, funnily enough is after they have had their drivers license for some years, and those two mix bad together (lack…

I'd like to agree but the evidence suggests differently, e.g. [1] Arguably, there was an increased awareness in the US of drunk driving as a problem during that period but the effect still seems to be real even correcting for that.

Of course, if we assume a completely different culture around alcohol, the results might well be different.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20497803

Re: Japan plans to lower age of adulthood to 18 (2018)

#25

Post by devoply » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 1:10 PM UTC

insertnickname wrote: post #15

devoply wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than the allure of forbidden fruit I don't see what you actually lose by not drinking, smoking or gambling for those 2 formative years.

Why not make it a hundred years?

Why prevent sexually mature humans from engaging in sex?

Re: Japan plans to lower age of adulthood to 18 (2018)

#26

Post by TulliusCicero » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 1:10 PM UTC

Tehnix wrote: post #23

ghaff wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US at least, the 21 yo drinking age is mostly a wholly pragmatic law [EDIT: laws. It's state by state but there was a big federal stick attached to highway funding.] to reduce teenage drunk driving (which affects more than the individual). Tobacco sales is mostly 18 in the US (although a few states are 21). Casinos also vary although the drinking age restricts It's hard to make an intellectual case for dispari…

I would argue that it actually ends up having the opposite effect. The culture towards drinking that the US has, means that young people either have to hide really hard that they are in fact drinking, or that they never learn control before much later in life, because they go all in when they are 21. This, funnily enough is after they have had their drivers license for some years, and those two mix bad together (lack…

Most US states do allow some measure of underage drinking with parental permission, IIRC. But it's true that that's not really a strong/common part of the culture.

Re: Japan plans to lower age of adulthood to 18 (2018)

#27

Post by scarface74 » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 1:11 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #19

pattusk wrote: post #7

> But teenagers will still be banned from smoking, drinking alcohol and gambling until they are 20. The logic of this escapes me. Although the article does not seem to mention it, it seems probable that the voting age will likely also be lowered to 18. This means teenagers will be considered old enough to make decisions that will affect the entire country, all the while being considered too immature to make decisions…

In the US at least, the 21 yo drinking age is mostly a wholly pragmatic law [EDIT: laws. It's state by state but there was a big federal stick attached to highway funding.] to reduce teenage drunk driving (which affects more than the individual). Tobacco sales is mostly 18 in the US (although a few states are 21). Casinos also vary although the drinking age restricts It's hard to make an intellectual case for dispari…

In the US at least, the 21 yo drinking age is mostly a wholly pragmatic law to reduce teenage drunk driving (which affects more than the individual).

Because making the legal drinking age 21 has stopped people between 18-21 from getting alcohol.

Re: Japan plans to lower age of adulthood to 18 (2018)

#28

Post by ghaff » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 1:14 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #26

Tehnix wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that it actually ends up having the opposite effect. The culture towards drinking that the US has, means that young people either have to hide really hard that they are in fact drinking, or that they never learn control before much later in life, because they go all in when they are 21. This, funnily enough is after they have had their drivers license for some years, and those two mix bad together (lack…

Most US states do allow some measure of underage drinking with parental permission, IIRC. But it's true that that's not really a strong/common part of the culture.

As a practical if not legal matter, people can do more or less as they please in their own homes. But I'm personally glad I went to college at a time when drinking alcohol was pretty much all above board. (At least at the time, the fact that the drinking age was legally 18 meant that drinking as a college student was pretty much OK even if you weren't actually 18 yet. The local bar we frequented was fine with just a college ID; they didn't otherwise check age.)

Re: Japan plans to lower age of adulthood to 18 (2018)

#29

Post by Tehnix » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 1:15 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #24

Tehnix wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that it actually ends up having the opposite effect. The culture towards drinking that the US has, means that young people either have to hide really hard that they are in fact drinking, or that they never learn control before much later in life, because they go all in when they are 21. This, funnily enough is after they have had their drivers license for some years, and those two mix bad together (lack…

I'd like to agree but the evidence suggests differently, e.g. [1] Arguably, there was an increased awareness in the US of drunk driving as a problem during that period but the effect still seems to be real even correcting for that. Of course, if we assume a completely different culture around alcohol, the results might well be different. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20497803

Ah, I should maybe have been more clear. My point was that it would have better effects to change the culture around drinking, rather than increasing the age limit of when you can drink.

I’m not suggesting that it’s an easy thing to do though.

Re: Japan plans to lower age of adulthood to 18 (2018)

#30

Post by BoorishBears » Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 1:17 PM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #21

BoorishBears wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If smoking, alcohol, and gambling had the same affects on all fully grown adults as it did on people with developing minds we probably wouldn’t have them. They’re at a much higher risk for addiction, much higher risk for permanent brain impairment from alcohol, imagine if those risks and effects were instead just the baseline for everyone. For example, somehow even moderate drinking at 30 would permanently damage you…

Ok, let’s ban drinking for under 30s. Alcohol is clearly far more harmful than cannabis and I sincerely doubt it’s more harmful than speed or medicinal heroin, all of which we ban. If we’re going to ban things for adults why 21 and not 30?

I shouldn’t have to write this out but...

It’s a sliding scale. Not an on and off switch. “Why allow drinking at all?!” Society has deemed that people at 21 can handle it. The longer you wait the better so it’s not like there’s a detriment.

Do you remember the person you were at 21 vs 18?

But sure, if you think the drinking age should be 30 go ahead and call your congressperson.