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Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

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Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#291

Post by yardie »

joseph-curwen wrote: post #262
yardie wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in Miami and Miami Beach since the 80s. Miami Beach, and Ocean Drive have never been what you described. When I lived there fights, shootings, and prostitution was quite flagrant on Ocean. Before being redeveloped into million dollar condos, SoFi was a ghetto. Spring Break is fairly new to the area. Prior to that the college students would hit Daytona, Panama City, or Key West. And long before that Fort Lau…

First of all the 80s were close to 40 years ago. How about the period 2000-2010? What did change after 2010 that wasn't there before? Miami Beach was always a touristy place. Spring Break and Memorial Day were always rowdy affairs. And when I talked about shop/restaurants closing I emphasized their replacements. It's one thing for restaurants to close in Miami Beach (happens every year). It's quite another for same r…

> change after 2010 that wasn't there before

Miami real estate was especially hit hard after the financial crisis of 2008. Rich investors, American, European, and South American, were snapping up South Beach properties for pennies on the dollar and reselling them for tidy profits. I lived in an apartment in Flamingo Park that was almost 50% absentee European owners. The trendy European neighbors you were referring to upthread are the same ones renting through AirBnB while they are back home. Even though it was against the condo bylaws (long before code enforcement cracked down) they did it anyway.

> It's quite another for same restaurant to close and be replaced by a kebab or pizza place.

Because when you are on a month to month lease, which speculators love to do before razing everything before building condos Wynwood, you tend to get cheap popup places that can move in and out quickly. A pizza place just needs cheap tables and an oven. Decor and kitchen workstation planning isn't a consideration.

> Today's SOBE bears little resemblance to SOBE of the pre-Airbnb past.

I agree but not for the reasons you think. 80s South Beach was geriatric, 90s South Beach was club grungie, giving way to 00s gay/artsy South Beach, to gentrification through the 10s, until here we are today. It's trendy but tourist trendy.

Locals have already moved on to Surfside and Hollywood. Cleaner lest crowded beaches.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#292

Post by bargl »

ProAm wrote: post #247
bargl wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the USA, I'm surprised he wasn't shot. Not joking at all, your story is actually kinda funny but it could have gone so much worse at so many points. Is that AirBnB's fault? Is it the hosts fault? Is it the cities fault for not regulating this? Is it our society's fault for allowing drinking to the point of forgetting your address? I think in the end it's just a series of unfortunate events, that give you a re…

> Is that AirBnB's fault? He wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for AirBNB. He likely could have asked the concierge at the hotel he was staying at for help finding his room in his drunken state.

He also wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for: The Host, Himself, air travel?, bachelor party?, bars he visited, brands of alcohol he drank, Uber who took him to the wrong address, His parents, his grand parents.

What if instead of the host using AirBnB he was just a local Bed and Breakfast (those existed before AirBnb). Who's fault is it then?

I forget the term for it, but there is a legal definition that limits liability in a lot of these kinds of cases because it can get very broad. I personally, find your assertion that AirBnB is to blame to be too broad. I can easily think of a situation that this same scenario happens without AriBnB.

This individual fucked up, the situation was handled really well by the OP and a few others.

Conversely, I'd say that from the article AirBNB fighting regulation and to not pay taxes is their fault.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#293

Post by munchbunny »

koboll wrote: post #55
duxup wrote: post #26

I lived a few doors down to someone who basically ran an ad hoc AirBnB ... before Airbnb. It was pretty terrible. Parties all the time, trash, they parked anywhere (in other people's driveways...) because there were likely no long term consequences for doing so, the folks staying there didn't care because why should they? I was on the association board, it's kinda thankless job as we had to deal with this house. We g…

>In the end it was just a horrible situation to open up what was a hotel, right in the middle of our association / neighborhood. By joining a HOA, you've delegated away to the collective the right to dictate to your neighbors what they can and can't do with their own property. In your case, the system worked - because you are in a HOA. If people want to exert that kind of collectivist control over their neighbors, th…

Alternately, this is a blind spot in zoning laws, which exist in part to make sure that residences remain pleasant spaces to live in, and this blind spot needs to be addressed. The flipside of the libertarian "you have no right to dictate what I do" stance is that you may be generating external costs that your community has to absorb, so the legal structure should make sure you bear your share of that cost in accordance with how much you contribute to creating that cost.

Noise complaints are a downstream symptom. It's often unproductive and ineffective for laws to try to back-propagate policy by regulating downstream symptoms and hoping upstream symptoms get fixed as a result.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#294

Post by nate_meurer »

leesalminen wrote: post #268
nate_meurer wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question. In my case, the home is consistently occupied by more people than would otherwise be living there full time, and they're much more active than a family of permanent residents would be. They eat out a lot, drive around the town and up mountain roads, and if they're skiiers or outdoor sports-people, they're in and out of town every day. Guests are usually groups of blended family and friends, so there a…

You could tell people that the septic system is not designed for large amounts of paper and is prone to clogging. Tell them that if that happens, there will be a pricey charge for a plumber to come out. You’re scaring them into being mindful without the negative taste of charging for use of toilet paper. How do you ban smoking outside? Are you on property keeping tabs on your guests every move?

I have a nose like a bloodhound. If someone has been smoking in the house, there is no way to hide it from me. My cleaning lady is also somewhat of a detective and has been known to go through the trash if she thinks rules have been broken.

Smoking outside is a different problem. Until recently I didn't forbid it, but earlier this year I found cigarette butts in the brush below the deck, along with a burn mark on the dining table and cigarettes in the trash. That was from a large group of college aged boys.

In normal dry conditions, Colorado mountain country is like a big pile of kindling just waiting for some dumbass to toss a cigarette butt into the pine needles and set the town ablaze.

This incident really freaked me out. I took their entire security deposit, and added rules and a stern warning to my listing. At some point I'll install a camera outside to watch the deck and back yard, because I know it will happen again.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#295

Post by bargl »

bluGill wrote: post #252
bargl wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the USA, I'm surprised he wasn't shot. Not joking at all, your story is actually kinda funny but it could have gone so much worse at so many points. Is that AirBnB's fault? Is it the hosts fault? Is it the cities fault for not regulating this? Is it our society's fault for allowing drinking to the point of forgetting your address? I think in the end it's just a series of unfortunate events, that give you a re…

Despite what the media tries to tell you, shooting people in the US is not common. The media has an agenda on you thinking otherwise.

Correct, I should have not said shot and more said had a gun waiving at him.

I would say however, that while shootings are rare in the US, so are events where people run to grab a weapon. We can agree that the prevalence of guns means there is a high chance a gun is the most dangerous weapon available.

I would guess that in events where there is banging on a house guns are "involved" more in the USA than in other countries. It'd be hard to collect that data because a gun in the hand of one person can quickly de-escalate a situation.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#296

Post by sushisushisushi »

deepakhj wrote: post #232
sushisushisushi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But outside of that structure, what gives someone the right to dictate to their neighbors what they can and can't do with their own property? The fact that what you do with your own property often has direct effects on your neighbors. This is why zoning regulations exist, for example. And noise ordinances. And building codes. There isn't a magical forcefield that ends at your property line that prevents what you're…

A lot of zoning regulations exist to keep black people out. See single family zoning, redlining, and apartment building bans. Texas has barely any zoning and it’s doing fine.

Zoning regulations are a tool of civic planning. The fact that racist civic planners use them to enact racist zoning regulations does not mean that zoning regulations in and of themselves are racist or always end up being racist.

There is tons of zoning in Texas; I think you're thinking of Houston.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#297

Post by DoreenMichele »

uwuhn wrote: post #281
DoreenMichele wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears to be aimed at students, not homeless people who want to get off the street for one night. As the Wikipedia article I linked states, flophouses were typically rented by transients -- what we generally call "the homeless" these days. The term "flophouse" originated with hobos and propagated out to the larger culture. I was homeless for several years. The prices listed in the thing you linked are comparable…

I'm not a student and I airbnb'd there while in between leases. Most of the other people I met there weren't students either.

So, a few questions:

1. Would you say you, personally, were "homeless" at the time that you lived there?

2. Would you say the photo the listing was representative? Or would you say it actually looked more like a filthy dive, a la the photos in the Wikipedia article on flophouses?

3. Would you say the majority of other tenants were transients?

Anything else you can tell us here on HN to support your assertion that the listing in question fits the definition of "flophouse"?

Thanks.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#298

Post by leetcrew »

nate_meurer wrote: post #294
leesalminen wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could tell people that the septic system is not designed for large amounts of paper and is prone to clogging. Tell them that if that happens, there will be a pricey charge for a plumber to come out. You’re scaring them into being mindful without the negative taste of charging for use of toilet paper. How do you ban smoking outside? Are you on property keeping tabs on your guests every move?

I have a nose like a bloodhound. If someone has been smoking in the house, there is no way to hide it from me. My cleaning lady is also somewhat of a detective and has been known to go through the trash if she thinks rules have been broken. Smoking outside is a different problem. Until recently I didn't forbid it, but earlier this year I found cigarette butts in the brush below the deck, along with a burn mark on the…

> I took their entire security deposit

is this legal? I thought you were only allowed to deduct actual damage / cost of repairs from a security deposit, not punitive charges.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#299

Post by sushisushisushi »

koboll wrote: post #288
e1ven wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His post doesn't give that impression. "But outside of that structure, what gives someone the right to dictate to their neighbors what they can and can't do with their own property?" Zoning. Literally, most cities and towns have laws about where someone can run a hotel. A huge number of AirBNB rentals are highly illegal.

I specifically addressed zoning and the idea that short-term rentals are "hotels" in my parent post.

You may have addressed it, but it doesn't seem like you understand it.

People get away with operating small businesses in residential zones because the businesses they usually operate tend to operate unnoticed and without disrupting neighbors' lives. For example, working from home as an independent contractor, or simply receiving business mail at your home address--these things have zero impact on your neighbors, generally speaking. It's quite possible to operate such a small business out of your home or apartment without any of your neighbors ever even realizing it.

Now, if you were actually engaged in providing services to customers directly from your home or apartment, that would be a different story. If you had a steady stream of clients visiting your home, your neighbors might be right to complain about the increased traffic, noise, or any other undesirable consequences.

Treating your property like a hotel is no different from treating it like a restaurant or a hair salon or a department store; it changes the character of the neighborhood, places extra (or at the very least unexpected) load on local infrastructure (which may not be designed to handle it), potentially reduces security, and causes any number of other potentially adverse side effects.

But I'd say that your argument that operating a hotel out of your home is somehow just like operating any other kind of small business falls on its face by virtue of the fact that operating a hotel out of your home is clearly quite controversial while operating many other kinds of small businesses is not. If these things were the same, this discussion would not be happening.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#300

Post by eldavido »

SkyBelow wrote: post #163
bluGill wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a right to dictate who parks in my driveway. I have rights to a quiet time to sleep at night. I don't object to you running a hotel next door, but I expect your guests to behave themselves well..

It seems the issue here is that when you are wronged (my guest are way too noisy), you don't have an adequate solution to seek compensation from me, and give enough instances of something like this happening, we turn more towards an outright ban on something that can give rise to the injustice but is not itself an injustice, but which is easier to enforce. Perhaps if the root issues were given some easy way for one t…

In general I agree that regulation should be narrowly crafted.

The problem is that any law or rule is only as good as its enforcement. People forget this too often when writing regulations, ending up with rules that are too costly, or involve too much invasion of privacy to get right.

I think the lesson is that you should always consider enforcement when writing policy. It needs to be front-and-center, not a secondary concern. A worse policy may end up being better if it's more easily enforceable.

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