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China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

bloomberg.com

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Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#251

Post by captainredbeard »

mcv wrote: post #187
growlist wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically if we don't control immigration, the developed world will look like the developing world, and then there will be no more developed world to help out. I think for some this is the intended endgame.

There's no evidence of this. Uncontrolled immigration is what made America great. If there's a problem it causes, it's that it creates a brain drain from the developing world to the developed world; it's often the more talented and enterprising people who leave (though that varies wildly among specific emigrating groups).

> There's no evidence of this

There's a lot of evidence of this. Look at crime rates in Germany and Sweden before and after their mass immigration import.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#252

Post by magduf »

jaegerpicker wrote: post #215
Sabinus wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume there were many more trees in the same watershed before man chopped them down for pasture and cities.

Sure, but there was a lot more available water in the watershed then also. Agriculture in a lot of ways has been the biggest ecological disaster this planet has ever seen. Man has redirected and pushed water out of nearly every watershed on the planet vastly changing what biome a area can support. I say that fully aware of the benefits that Agriculture has allowed human society, I wouldn't change it if I could in the…

We need to switch to just growing our plant food indoors, using hydroponics. It's much more efficient with water than outdoor irrigation, and can be done vertically so it doesn't take up so much land.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#253

Post by joncrane »

andyjh wrote: post #146
evolve2k wrote: post #61

This points out a new opportunity. Why stop at China for electric busses (yes they are probably manufacturing them locally)? Cities are seeming increasingly more able to be proactive than countries. Encourage local cities to one by one electrify the bus network and this effect goes global. It’s obvious tangible action that citizens can demand and mayors can visibly deliver. Game for those playing at home, do a search…

Milton Keynes has had electric buses since 2014, which top up their batteries via induction chargers at the end of each route throughout the day: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25621426 http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/milton-keynes-wir... The number of buses is set to increase after the initial successful trial: https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/more-electric-buses-on-t...

Isn't Milton Keynes where the McLaren Technology Centre is? (McLaren are a Formula 1 team and supercar manufacturer)

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#254

Post by magduf »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #196
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hills are the primary use case for electric buses already (electric has much better torque), and have been for a very long time. The only thing is now instead of using overhead lines, batteries can be used instead.

>Hills are the primary use case for electric buses already (electric has much better torque) A typical fairly modern city bus is geared to top out at low highway speed. Having the maximum amount of acceleration is possible for a vehicle that is pulling in and out of traffic all day which is why they are geared so low. Buses will happily roast the tires from a stop (an impressive sight, I highly recommend) if not elec…

You're completely ignoring the efficiency aspect. ICEs simply cannot compete with EVs when operating at low and variable speeds: the EV will get far better overall energy efficiency. Sure, you can get a lot of torque from a diesel engine by gearing it down, but you're just not going to get very good efficiency when it's constantly braking and accelerating at low speeds. And electric motors develop peak torque at stall; ICEs always have to use clutches or torque convertors to avoid a stall, and their peak torque is very high in the rev range, so you need an even bigger engine when operating at low speeds primarily.

There's only one deficiency with EVs compared to ICEs, and that's energy storage. On every other metric, they easily win.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#255

Post by magduf »

tialaramex wrote: post #163
spongeb00b wrote: post #153

Electric buses seem to be fairly common in UK city centres. I first saw one in London about 4 years ago - it was surreal when walking past a typical red double decker at a bus stop and it just glided away with the faintest whirr. I’m all for buses and taxis turning electric to reduce the diesel fumes in cities.

Gliding away silently is often a hybrid. London does own electric buses, but mostly it has hybrids (and lots of conventional diesel buses). If you were on the bus its engine probably started a minute later, it's still an improvement, and I assume that environmentally not spewing fumes at bus stops helps a little with local air quality, but it's not usually an electric bus.

Considering that most of a city bus's use is at low speed, constantly braking and accelerating from stops, the hybrid should be a huge improvement environmentally; it's the perfect use-case for a hybrid powertrain (where the ICE just runs at constant speed and charges the batteries, known as a serial hybrid vehicle).

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#256

Post by RankingMember »

gibybo wrote: post #94
Razengan wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growth of the economy to what end? What is the endgame? What will conjure up the constant resources and space required for the constant growth required by the economy?

>What will conjure up the constant resources Probably the sun and small scale fusion for at least the next thousand years or so. Eventually other stars/large scale fusion/some type of energy production we haven't discovered yet. >and space There is enormous amounts of room left on earth. Everyone on earth could have an acre of land to themselves with 10x the current population, and that completely ignores multi-level…

To what end, though? What is the point in endless expansion? I think at this point we're just expanding out of some basic evolutionary urge, but like other such urges that have outlived their usefulness, I feel like we need to revisit this one.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#257

Post by telchar »

bobthepanda wrote: post #200
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hills are the primary use case for electric buses already (electric has much better torque), and have been for a very long time. The only thing is now instead of using overhead lines, batteries can be used instead.

The problem is not the torque, it’s energy consumption while climbing a hill. Notes on observed increased energy consumption while on hills during Hong Kong trials: https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201812/12/P2018121200670... Trolleybuses are great for hills because they are constantly drawing power from the grid. It’s why Seattle has committed to trolleybus expansion for its hilly network.

Regenerative braking is very straightforward, making hills a great place to use electric. A nice additional benefit of regenerative braking is stop-and-go driving, like buses do, is hell on brakes and efficiency. Regen allows improved efficiency while saving the brakes. And incidentally, my ears - buses and trucks with worn out brakes make terrible screeching noises which IMHO are among the most unpleasant components of city noise. Regen braking saves the brakes and mostly eliminates this problem.

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#258

Post by [deleted] »

paganel wrote: post #145
benj111 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is China getting singled out? The West tried it, not knowing because it had never been done before, and found it had issues. I would expect the West to be criticised as much, if not more so for doing the same thing today.

It looked like a surprise for some posters here, yeah, they seem to didn’t know that the same has been happening in the West since as early as the late 1700s-early 1800s and I’d say it’s still happening. The West is not being criticized as much as it should today for repeating the same mistake it has been doing again and again for almost two centuries now. Later edit: This forest which got knocked out during a recent…

[deleted]

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#259

Post by gamblor956 »

bobthepanda wrote: post #86
evolve2k wrote: post #61

This points out a new opportunity. Why stop at China for electric busses (yes they are probably manufacturing them locally)? Cities are seeming increasingly more able to be proactive than countries. Encourage local cities to one by one electrify the bus network and this effect goes global. It’s obvious tangible action that citizens can demand and mayors can visibly deliver. Game for those playing at home, do a search…

Initial indicators seem to be that they're not ready for prime time. Albuquerque returned BYD buses because of problems with range not performing as advertised. https://www.abqjournal.com/1246094/abq-rejecting-all-byd-art... Battery-electrics still have major issues with range; buses cannot last a full day on a single charge, and midday charging takes too long. And if it gets cold or the route has hills, you're compl…

It's not so much that electric buses are the problem as that BYD in particular is just a shitty bus maker.

Every transportation agency in the US that's purchased BYD vehicles has had major issues with the vehicles. Most agencies have cut short their orders, and a number of agencies cancelled them altogether. (LA's Metro system also experimented with BYD buses. During their short tenure in operation, the BYD buses were less reliable than buses that were over two decades old. The contract was suspended pending review.)

Re: China's e-buses dent oil demand more than electric cars do

#260

Post by tim333 »

thewhitetulip wrote: post #84

By this logic, we should "forget" all the go green initiatives because China (and Africa) are building a "Green Wall" to stop their respective deserts from widening. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/04/china-great-gree... I say this is mainly about China because Africa has modified their green wall project and instead of planting billion trees from East coast to West coast, they are helping communities to thr…

I don't think the article says anything about we should "forget" EVs because China does good busses. If anything it might inspire some more electric busses in the west.
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