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Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

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Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#251

Post by linuxftw »

sevensor wrote: post #248
linuxftw wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I guess being in poverty isn't so bad as long as you have an open mind and critical thinking skills. Always with the intangible 'benefits' to people. If what you're worried about is 'critical thinking skills' perhaps there should be a course modeled for that exact outcome. How does learning about ancient history make you open minded? How does fictional literature make you open minded? Maybe you should open your…

You seem to be all over this thread, so maybe you're replying as much to all the people disagreeing with you as you are to my comment specifically. I believe there's a bigger place for vocational education than it currently occupies, but I take issue with your disparagement of the humanities. The humanities are important, both for individuals and for the body politic. History gives us a critical lens for looking at t…

> Why should being poor exclude you from the use of history -- recognizing when you're being used by a rabble-rouser, literature -- understanding and being understood by your neighbors who may be different from you, or grammar -- being able to participate at even the most basic level in public debate? That's disenfranchisement. How do you suppose poverty is maintained?

These are all nice sentiments, but not based in reality whatsoever.

How many kids drop out of high school because they view it as completely pointless? If you're in the 10th grade, you know you're not going to college because you can't afford it or you have the self awareness that you're not a good fit for one reason or another, why finish? What good is that 12th grade civics lesson to you?

If you think humanities are important, teach them on your own time on your own dime. The majority of people live in the real world, and the real world doesn't care anything about you, only what economic value you provide. You have to have money to live in this society, until that changes, humanities are a large waste of time for a large portion of the population.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#252

Post by Kaveren »

fuball63 wrote: post #205
packetpirate wrote: post #195

What a load of crap... "why do schools focus on unmarketable skills?" Gee, I don't know? Maybe because we shouldn't be teaching kids that they only exist to learn about a trade so they can be another cog in the machine? Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market and every person should be given the opportunity to branch out and be diverse in their studies? Colleges give you…

I'm all for the movement to teach math and science differently so students garner a greater appreciation for critical thinking, but when the author suggested learning literature, poetry, and history are wastes of time, I strongly disagreed. The arts and history teach us empathy and give us context of the human condition. There is so much more to being a cog in the machine, as you said correctly. The more I see the wa…

Referencing my earlier comment [0]. Caplan never says that the arts a waste of time. Refutes your view [1], main points are that this is an idealistic view; that enrichment requires willful participants which many if not most students are not, enthusiastic teachers, and good material. Says he loves the "useless" knowledge personally.

There's a reason that there's not much societal interest in many humanities topics covered in college outside of it. It's just apathy.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19440353 [1] https://youtu.be/kCLGURUubzc?t=1893

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#253

Post by sevensor »

linuxftw wrote: post #251
sevensor wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be all over this thread, so maybe you're replying as much to all the people disagreeing with you as you are to my comment specifically. I believe there's a bigger place for vocational education than it currently occupies, but I take issue with your disparagement of the humanities. The humanities are important, both for individuals and for the body politic. History gives us a critical lens for looking at t…

> Why should being poor exclude you from the use of history -- recognizing when you're being used by a rabble-rouser, literature -- understanding and being understood by your neighbors who may be different from you, or grammar -- being able to participate at even the most basic level in public debate? That's disenfranchisement. How do you suppose poverty is maintained? These are all nice sentiments, but not based in…

Edit: removed snarky comment. Congratulations, you got under my skin.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#254

Post by wazoox »

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

I talked to the mason that refitted my house in 2016. He wanted to be a mason like his father, who insisted on him getting a higher education. So he complied and became a bachelor in law, then went on being what he wanted to be, a mason :)

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#255

Post by eanzenberg »

sethherr wrote: post #126
BucketSort wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we are electing the president by the same principle, I assure you that it is even worse than you can imagine. Societal collapse is imminent. Those who are comforted by their station in life always think they are living in a utopia. You are surrounded by fake smiles adorning people forced into subservience. At one time the myth that hard work and dedication would pay off in the end kept people in line, the "ameri…

I agree! Let’s all wear flannel and be slackers! You’re doing a throw back to the nineties comment, right?

Haha, yeah you could pluck that comment out of any decade and find (insane)people saying it.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#256

Post by Balgair »

_hardwaregeek wrote: post #98

There's several issues I've noticed as a student. First, kids are told to go to college immediately after high school. If college was high school 2.0, this would be fine. But college is completely different from high school; it's significantly more expensive, more free form and more rigorous (at least compared to most high schools). I see so many students who clearly have no clue what they want to do, why they're in…

Some form of mandatory alternative civilian service may be of use here in the US. Hypothetically, 'cutting the apron strings' may improve physical fitness, national identity, common understanding, and widen the shared views of the conscripts. Here in the US, the Vietnam war was the most recent event where nearly every family and citizen was affected and were forced to interact with each other.

Anecdotally, vets on campus tended to be more 'serious' than ones that were not drafted. That said, most vets would have elected not to have undergone the experience regardless of their level of involvement in the war.

Also, the costs of such programs are very high. If you look at military conscription today, it is limited to countries with small populations or ones that are actively threatened. Mobilizing, feeding, housing, and caring for nearly 450,000 people is not an easy task. The net benefit of this conscription is ambiguous as well. Denmark used to use their conscripts in the care of the elderly and in wildland firefighting, but has since degraded that from their service. Doing so here in the US may be of benefit, but not at the costs that would be sustained. Such work is better left to the professionals, typically.

I'm not even close to an expert in this field, but a cursory look at it suggests that the cost/benefit ratio is not close. However, the same can be said of nearly any educational endeavor, yet we know that on a decadeal timeline it pays for itself many times over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_civilian_service

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#257

Post by emily001 »

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Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#258

Post by cameldrv »

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

7 years and 2.5 million per escalator. I really don't think it's an escalator mechanic shortage. For that price you can fly in mechanics and have them stay in nice hotels and have it done in a month. The problem is that the procurement process is totally dysfunctional.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#259

Post by rland »

_hardwaregeek wrote: post #98

There's several issues I've noticed as a student. First, kids are told to go to college immediately after high school. If college was high school 2.0, this would be fine. But college is completely different from high school; it's significantly more expensive, more free form and more rigorous (at least compared to most high schools). I see so many students who clearly have no clue what they want to do, why they're in…

Just to piggy back on this comment: there is a strong case for mandatory military service. Just going to list bullet points.

- Would help people mature before diving into the next stage of life, especially immature people whose upbringing has failed to imbue them with responsibility.

- Would boost civic participation. When everyone's kid is at risk of dying, everyone pays attention to who we're going to war with and why.

- Would provide structure for people when they are at the point when they could do the most damage to themselves or society (young adulthood).

- Would strengthen military power; every citizen would have at least a small amount of military training, if we really need it.

- Would greatly diminish stratification of social/cultural/economic groups. Would help get people out of the bubbles they grow up in.

- Would increase physical fitness and health of the population.

I see very little downside to a mandatory 2 year military service.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#260

Post by BucketSort »

eanzenberg wrote: post #255
sethherr wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree! Let’s all wear flannel and be slackers! You’re doing a throw back to the nineties comment, right?

Haha, yeah you could pluck that comment out of any decade and find (insane)people saying it.

It's also usually true.
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