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Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

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Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#231

Post by physicsyogi »

linuxftw wrote: post #216
packetpirate wrote: post #195

What a load of crap... "why do schools focus on unmarketable skills?" Gee, I don't know? Maybe because we shouldn't be teaching kids that they only exist to learn about a trade so they can be another cog in the machine? Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market and every person should be given the opportunity to branch out and be diverse in their studies? Colleges give you…

> Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market That's just your opinion. Unfortunately, it's supported by the entrenched education establishment, but that doesn't make it true. The cold hard reality is, if you aren't college material, don't attend some vocational school, and don't learn a trade, you're in for a life of hard labor or burger flipping. It's going to be a complete…

> Yeah, one way to reduce costs would be to remove all the extraneous coursework that's of zero value to society.

Some of that "extraneous coursework", I'm thinking of things like theather, drama, and dance, brings billions of dollars to the economy every year. For example, Broadway alone generates billions in spending annually [1], with some of that spending going towards the transportation, hospitality (hotel, food) [2], and merchandising industries [3].

[1] https://variety.com/2014/legit/news/broadway-economic-impact...

[2] https://www.americansforthearts.org/by-program/reports-and-d...

[3] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/theater/hamilton-inc-the-...

(Edited for formatting)

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#232

Post by MivLives »

Simulacra wrote: post #3

The key problem I think, with higher education, is that we force students to take classes in the name of liberal education. If no one is required to take a class, then students might not take that class, which leads to that professor's usefulness, and perhaps career, coming into question. If anything universities are increasing not only the number of classes a student has to take, but also increasing seemingly-pointl…

The most frustrating thing that happened to me in college was my school fucking my graduation requirements on their online portal and basically not telling me until my final quarter I actually had to take three more electives.

I was prevents from graduating on time because I needed to take 9 credits of... whatever. Why? Am I really a better person for being made to spend the extra time and money taking some bullshit class I barely remember?

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#233

Post by jlevers »

_hardwaregeek wrote: post #98

There's several issues I've noticed as a student. First, kids are told to go to college immediately after high school. If college was high school 2.0, this would be fine. But college is completely different from high school; it's significantly more expensive, more free form and more rigorous (at least compared to most high schools). I see so many students who clearly have no clue what they want to do, why they're in…

I very much agree that the default should change on college coming directly after high school. Sounds like we had pretty similar paths -- I also took a year off after high school, and did a lot of traveling that I funded by programming (I had a fair amount of previous experience). I feel like that year gave me a ton of perspective that I didn't have before, and while I knew that I liked programming beforehand, I think I gained some new appreciation for it. The one "issue" with that year off is that it's clear to me that I could have foregone college and still done well for myself working as a programmer, which definitely doesn't make me more motivated to finish college, since I much prefer working to going to school...but I'm not convinced that that's actually an issue, and I'm definitely really glad I took that year off. I'm much more disciplined and focused than I was before.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#234

Post by FiddlyPack »

linuxftw wrote: post #216
packetpirate wrote: post #195

What a load of crap... "why do schools focus on unmarketable skills?" Gee, I don't know? Maybe because we shouldn't be teaching kids that they only exist to learn about a trade so they can be another cog in the machine? Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market and every person should be given the opportunity to branch out and be diverse in their studies? Colleges give you…

> Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market That's just your opinion. Unfortunately, it's supported by the entrenched education establishment, but that doesn't make it true. The cold hard reality is, if you aren't college material, don't attend some vocational school, and don't learn a trade, you're in for a life of hard labor or burger flipping. It's going to be a complete…

Studying history seems like it would have immense value to society, but negative value to short-term corporate interests, and, by extension, may not be in the best interests of the individual. The same could be said of the study of ethics.

I must say “seems like” because there’s really no scientific way to prove this (most of the time...although there are some interesting micro-studies in behavioral economics). But if you think about it even a little bit, I think you would agree that having a “collective memory” about causality in society is incredibly valuable to the interests of the citizens of that society, even if it has negative economic value to individuals.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#235

Post by ativzzz »

ohaideredevs wrote: post #230
linuxftw wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market That's just your opinion. Unfortunately, it's supported by the entrenched education establishment, but that doesn't make it true. The cold hard reality is, if you aren't college material, don't attend some vocational school, and don't learn a trade, you're in for a life of hard labor or burger flipping. It's going to be a complete…

I think the biggest part of the problem isn't that there are liberal arts degrees, it's that they aren't clearly labelled "these are for the rich kids who never need to work". Same for any "business major", of course, except double major in accounting on CPA track.

> Same for any "business major"

Dunno about that, many of my middle class friends with degrees in Finance, Marketing, MIS, etc, went on to secure well paying jobs right out of college, and now 5-6 years later are doing really well for themselves. Also I know people who went to big 4 consulting out of undergrad with liberal arts degrees.

I think it depends more on the school than the major. A shitty school with bad career coaching that doesn't teach you how to 'sell' yourself to prospective employers will have unemployed software engineers.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#236

Post by linuxftw »

sevensor wrote: post #227
linuxftw wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The arts and history teach us empathy and give us context of the human condition. I disagree. These courses should be merely electives, if offered at all. The average person doesn't really have time for this stuff, they have a long road ahead of them and they need to spend more of their formative years preparing for the hard conditions of adult life.

You know what makes adult life harder? Being surrounded by close-minded, uneducated people who lack perspective and critical thinking skills. I'm not here to defend useless humanities classes taught in high schools and colleges. Many of them are quite bad, but we need to raise the bar, not eliminate it.

Yeah, I guess being in poverty isn't so bad as long as you have an open mind and critical thinking skills.

Always with the intangible 'benefits' to people.

If what you're worried about is 'critical thinking skills' perhaps there should be a course modeled for that exact outcome.

How does learning about ancient history make you open minded? How does fictional literature make you open minded?

Maybe you should open your mind and consider that the lower class of people in society are really bad off financially and that our education system is doing exactly 0 to rectify that fact.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#237

Post by heavenlyblue »

linuxftw wrote: post #224
heavenlyblue wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and that's why you would be so gullible when you reach the working age. You'll be listening to everything you're told because you'll never know any better.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. You know who sounds gullible to me? An 18 year old kid taking out 10's of thousands of dollars for a 'liberal arts degree.' Literal definition of gullibility IMO. I guess at least you'll feel better about yourself knowing you know 'things' while you're working at Starbucks.

Idk, if I had 10’s of thousands of dollars I’d pay that to have at least more than 2 women doing the same degree as I am.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#238

Post by xpertmadman »

packetpirate wrote: post #195

What a load of crap... "why do schools focus on unmarketable skills?" Gee, I don't know? Maybe because we shouldn't be teaching kids that they only exist to learn about a trade so they can be another cog in the machine? Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market and every person should be given the opportunity to branch out and be diverse in their studies? Colleges give you…

I think this is a good perspective if you're coming from a background that can easily afford to pay for it. I got a taste of this joy and intellectual freedom while attending University, and I definitely felt a strong call to remain in that environment, with the encouragement of my Professors. However, unless you're coming from a background with sufficient funding and stability, higher education is a means to an end in attaining a steady, well-paying career.

I think we'd benefit from two distinct tracks, which I'm starting to see more in practice: one track is to take the traditional college approach, the second is to take more practical training specific to your profession. I think in that way the students specifically trying to build careers for as little money and time as possible would benefit greatly, while the former group would still enjoy the traditional "college experience". Vocational training has been the case for a long time with "blue-collar" jobs, and I hope we will see more progress for "white-collar" jobs as well. I also get the arguments around building tools for complex reasoning and the time investment required, but a lot of us just don't have 4-5 years to invest.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#239

Post by linuxftw »

physicsyogi wrote: post #231
linuxftw wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market That's just your opinion. Unfortunately, it's supported by the entrenched education establishment, but that doesn't make it true. The cold hard reality is, if you aren't college material, don't attend some vocational school, and don't learn a trade, you're in for a life of hard labor or burger flipping. It's going to be a complete…

> Yeah, one way to reduce costs would be to remove all the extraneous coursework that's of zero value to society. Some of that "extraneous coursework", I'm thinking of things like theather, drama, and dance, brings billions of dollars to the economy every year. For example, Broadway alone generates billions in spending annually [1], with some of that spending going towards the transportation, hospitality (hotel, food…

I'm sure the less than 1% of people involved in that industry are super happy the rest of society subsidized their fun and creative lifestyle.

I guess flipping burgers and not having enough money to pay your bills is all okay because a select few (of most likely already privileged kids) got to sing and dance for money.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#240

Post by linuxftw »

FiddlyPack wrote: post #234
linuxftw wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market That's just your opinion. Unfortunately, it's supported by the entrenched education establishment, but that doesn't make it true. The cold hard reality is, if you aren't college material, don't attend some vocational school, and don't learn a trade, you're in for a life of hard labor or burger flipping. It's going to be a complete…

Studying history seems like it would have immense value to society, but negative value to short-term corporate interests, and, by extension, may not be in the best interests of the individual. The same could be said of the study of ethics. I must say “seems like” because there’s really no scientific way to prove this (most of the time...although there are some interesting micro-studies in behavioral economics). But i…

Just ask the burger flippers how it's such a great value to society. Unless you mean middle/upper class society, then yeah, sure. For the poor, helps them in no way imaginable.
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