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Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

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Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#241

Post by jessriedel »

rifung wrote: post #103
koboll wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In the end it was just a horrible situation to open up what was a hotel, right in the middle of our association / neighborhood. By joining a HOA, you've delegated away to the collective the right to dictate to your neighbors what they can and can't do with their own property. In your case, the system worked - because you are in a HOA. If people want to exert that kind of collectivist control over their neighbors, th…

> But outside of that structure, what gives someone the right to dictate to their neighbors what they can and can't do with their own property? All kinds of small businesses are routinely run out of residential zoned properties. "Renting a room" seems like the kind of small business that's ideal for this situation - it takes no more infrastructure to house a vacation rental than it does to house a longer-term residen…

koboll ask "what gives someone the right to dictate to their neighbors what they can and can't do with their own property?" he isn't asking for the legal mechanism. He's asking about whether the law is just. That something is the law is not a good argument alone.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#242

Post by madaxe_again »

ThJ wrote: post #67

I feel there is a difference between putting your home up for short term rent while you're away versus buying multiple homes that you never stay in and operating them as a self-service hotel. There's nothing wrong with this, but if you run a business, you must file the appropriate paperwork and follow the same rules as other businesses.

I moved to my second home, as I left my business and had no particular reason to stay put, and put my main home on the market as an Airbnb. A residential let wasn’t an option as a) I need to stay there from time to time and b) it wouldn’t cover the mortgage.

I’m a by-the-book guy when it comes to business, so registered the place as a guest-house business premises with the council. They even remarked that I was the first Airbnb operator to do this in over a year - and there are over a thousand Airbnbs in town.

Because the place is under a certain rateable value, which is based on location and size, it is eligible for a 100% rebate on business rates. I’d gladly pay them were anything due, but nothing is.

So, not only am I in the clear with local government, but being so saves me several thousand pounds a year.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#243

Post by nate_meurer »

jak92 wrote: post #185
nate_meurer wrote: post #81

I run a vacation rental in a small town in the mountains of Colorado. I'm quite happy to pay the taxes the town demands. Our place is busy, and our guests make a significant impact on the town, spending a lot of money in local shops and restaurants. On the other hand, there is increased wear on city and county roads (many of which are gravel), and increased load on water, sewer, and sanitation services. Cities and co…

> I run a vacation rental in a small town in the mountains of Colorado. I'm quite happy to pay the taxes the town demands. Do you collect the same taxes as hotels do? Have you registered as a business with your city?

Well, since the city collects taxes from us, they'd naturally be aware that we're running a business, don't you think? :)

Yes, we have a Colorado sales tax license and a city-issued business license, both hanging on the wall like any other business. Every vacation rental in town -- many dozens of them in all -- does the same. The town is small, neighbors are watchful, and city enforcement is strict.

We pay lodging and sales tax, same as a hotels. My rental rates are about half the cost for the same space in a hotel, and it's way nicer. You don't get a full kitchen in a hotel.

We pump a lot of money into the local economy -- much more than we would if we lived there full time. My cleaning lady made about $8000 off our house last year. Guests tend to be pretty active patrons of restaurants and shops, and when they eat at the home they buy food from a little grocery in town. The nearest supermarket is 45 minutes away.

It sucks that your neighborhood is suffering. But I rather doubt your situation would be much better if all the tourists were staying in hotels rather than airbnb's. Touristy destinations all face challenges, and there are myriad ways a city can screw it up.

But not everywhere is like Miami. A lot of our mountain towns are slowly dying. Some of them of tried to stay alive by legalizing casino gambling. It seems to work, but it turns your town into a casino town. Other towns are trying to navigate a delicate but potentially rewarding transition to being the kind of vacation destinations that people want to stay at for a week or more. Hotels can't help your town get that kind of business. Again, no kitchens. If I can help my town make that transition and also have a successful business for myself, it's a win-win for everybody.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#244

Post by mrgordon »

joseph-curwen wrote: post #99
jak92 wrote: post #4

Just look at the havoc being reigned on some neighborhoods in Miami Beach during spring break. Specifically the low-scale, residential flamingo park neighborhood of south beach.

Here is a story about Miami Beach: I moved there 9 years ago and have spent the last 8 years living on Ocean Drive in South Beach. When I first moved there the neighborhood was full of high-class tourists, a lot of Europeans. The beach was not extremely crowded, you had nice restaurants and upscale shops and the vibes you were getting were similar to what you would see in the Mediterranean (Spain / south France). Wit…

South Florida literally invented Spring Break destination travel so I'd hardly blame Airbnb for this. The street racing and machismo culture has been there as long as I can remember (easily back through the 90s) and its the locals doing that.

I'd blame Winter Music Conference and the constant stream of other huge party events as much as anything.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#245

Post by gamblor956 »

alistairSH wrote: post #191
gamblor956 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone that's never owned a house, that sounds like a shitty rule that should be disrupted. I'm assuming there is a positive side to that only homeowners can see. For starters, several federal agencies actually require COA's to limit the number of units that are not owner-occupied as a condition for government-backed mortgages. Some states and local laws also place caps on this to prevent condos from being used a…

Or, the other option... don't buy property that has these rules in place and you'll never have the problem. It's not like these rules pop up randomly - you have to sign condo/HOA docs as part of the closing process.

I agree. HOAs are still relatively rare outside of SoCal, so this issue is unlikely to pop up for 99.999% of the US population.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#246

Post by joe_the_user »

eropple wrote: post #126
dcosson wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, this just sounds to me like a pitch for AirBnB. They managed to solve this exact problem you're complaining about via the rating system and guests being attached to their real identity. The vast majority of AirBnB guests are very respectful and reasonable. As for your tight local control, fuck that. No, you shouldn't get to decide exactly what happens in your neighborhood just because you got there first. You…

I understand that there is this odd notion that every man is sui generis and all, but you live in a society. You can change the property under the purview of the association. It would be stupid to assert that you cannot. But you must win a vote to do so--and you agree to adhere to the results of association votes by buying into the property and into the association. Such positive tyranny one must endure. Makes my hea…

Someone can change the rules of local associations or someone can just defy the rules along with enough other people that the association becomes powerless. That's the mode of operation of AirBnb, for good and ill.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#247

Post by ProAm »

bargl wrote: post #170
unknownkadath wrote: post #160

Nashville resident here. A drunk airbnb user tried to break into a neighbor's house around 11 pm last week while the residents were inside. He was lost and thought he was at his rental, but that wasn't apparent to anyone else in the beginning, so my wife gets a call for help from another neighbor and we go to check it out. When we get there, we discover the assailant has been treed on a shed roof by the woman whose d…

This is the USA, I'm surprised he wasn't shot. Not joking at all, your story is actually kinda funny but it could have gone so much worse at so many points. Is that AirBnB's fault? Is it the hosts fault? Is it the cities fault for not regulating this? Is it our society's fault for allowing drinking to the point of forgetting your address? I think in the end it's just a series of unfortunate events, that give you a re…

> Is that AirBnB's fault?

He wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for AirBNB. He likely could have asked the concierge at the hotel he was staying at for help finding his room in his drunken state.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#248

Post by mullen »

rayiner wrote: post #159
duxup wrote: post #26

I lived a few doors down to someone who basically ran an ad hoc AirBnB ... before Airbnb. It was pretty terrible. Parties all the time, trash, they parked anywhere (in other people's driveways...) because there were likely no long term consequences for doing so, the folks staying there didn't care because why should they? I was on the association board, it's kinda thankless job as we had to deal with this house. We g…

> Local governments are run by the locals and they should get to decide where businesses like that operate and zone and so forth. Local governments are the wrong level for those sorts of decisions to be made. You don't have any right to tell your neighbors what to do with their property. Now, it's legitimate for the government to make rules of general application for everyone, but local governments have too much conf…

> Japan, which has a national zoning law, is the right model. In our system, we'd apply it at the state level.

I agree with you on this, however, Japan regulated AirBNB because renting a room for a short period of time is a pure commercial activity and not allowed in Residential areas.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#249

Post by siruncledrew »

nate_meurer wrote: post #81

I run a vacation rental in a small town in the mountains of Colorado. I'm quite happy to pay the taxes the town demands. Our place is busy, and our guests make a significant impact on the town, spending a lot of money in local shops and restaurants. On the other hand, there is increased wear on city and county roads (many of which are gravel), and increased load on water, sewer, and sanitation services. Cities and co…

Your story shows an example of doing things the "proper way" - you operate by-the-book, you take responsibility for the property, and you're an active local small biz participant.

The bigger issue is the people not doing these things. There are hosts (and guests) that simply don't give a fuck about others. Hosts (especially ones that don't live in the area) couldn't care less about their impact on the neighborhood as long as money keeps coming into their bank account, and will try their hardest to take shortcuts and avoid responsibility. Some "hosts" are more like wannabe slumlords. "Bad actor" guests also don't care about what happens to a place they are going to leave, which leads to things like trash, disturbances, and stealing.

A problem with Airbnb is that properties are not siloed; there is an environment around them. There's many places on Airbnb that are better than hotels, and there's a lot of economic impact on local communities. Airbnb needs to re-evaluate how these places are part of a community rather than isolated from one.

The "sunshine and rainbows" sentiment behind why Airbnb exists is a nice thought, but the platform is rolling into a snowball of consequences and externalities. Assholes are going to be assholes, so many bad experiences are not from normal transactions, but from assholes using Airbnb to their advantage and Airbnb turning their cheek.

Re: Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments

#250

Post by markdown »

koboll wrote: post #55
duxup wrote: post #26

I lived a few doors down to someone who basically ran an ad hoc AirBnB ... before Airbnb. It was pretty terrible. Parties all the time, trash, they parked anywhere (in other people's driveways...) because there were likely no long term consequences for doing so, the folks staying there didn't care because why should they? I was on the association board, it's kinda thankless job as we had to deal with this house. We g…

>In the end it was just a horrible situation to open up what was a hotel, right in the middle of our association / neighborhood. By joining a HOA, you've delegated away to the collective the right to dictate to your neighbors what they can and can't do with their own property. In your case, the system worked - because you are in a HOA. If people want to exert that kind of collectivist control over their neighbors, th…

You'd sing a different tune if a chicken factory-farm opened up next door, or if your neighbour decided to bury toxic waste in his backyard, or if he joined a band and brought them over for daily 1am practice.

We live in a society.

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