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Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

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241–250 of 269 posts

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#241

The fact that "AoA disagree" light and logic was an optional feature seems criminal enough to me. A sensor with no failover unless you pay for an option. Who the hell thought this was a good idea or approved it? WTF! 500 people are already dead. Boeing should be brought to the coals. It probably takes longer to go through the checklist than it does for everyone to die. I promise if the audio recordings are ever relea…

Hopefully whatever engineer signed his name to this goes to prison, and gets personally sued by the families of the victims.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#242

So a single point of failure (malfunctioning sensor) can engage the horizontal stabilizer without notifying pilots, in a way that the control yoke can't override. What the hell did Boeing think was going to happen?

All fly by wire jets have movements based on sensors. In the F-16 a faulty AOA probe is okay. 2x Faulty AOA probes are okay as long as they disagree. 2x faulty AOA probes that agree (frozen) are a very bad thing. But the loss is just a jet with an ejected seat if it can't be fixed, not nearly 200 people which is terribly sad. The worst part is from a previous Hacker News post listed below. In particular, the "Economi…

>But the loss is just a jet with an ejected seat if it can't be fixed, not nearly 200 people which is terribly sad.

Not necessarily true. If that F-16 is flying over a populated area, it can kill numerous people on the ground when it crashes.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#243
A machine that relies on sensors has two ways to detect when a sensor has failed: another sensor, or human observer input.

I don't know how avionics hardware engineers do it, but in this neighborhood of the Internet, we don't trust inputs, and especially human user inputs. Because every unverified, unsanitized input is an attack vector for bringing down our software and the system it runs on.

From what I have seen, the MCAS in the crashed planes relies on a single sensor--the AOA vane in the nose--and was almost solely responsible for catastrophic loss of altitude. This model of passenger jet has a paid upgrade option to add a second sensor, with disagreement detection.

My question is why don't the yoke inputs from the pilots count as disagreement with the AOA sensor? If the yoke is consistently counteracting the action of the MCAS, why can't it disable itself automatically and illuminate a light to indicate it has failed?

I'm guessing the pilots would have more time to search through manuals in-flight to clear the fault and re-enable the system than they would trying to disable it while it's stubbornly trying to crash the plane due to a single point of failure.

It's not hard to adopt the defensive mindset that your users (or your professional testers) are maliciously trying to destroy your beautiful program with a combination of stupidity and cleverly designed unanticipated inputs. When hardware gets involved, one can personify Entropy as a being that is trying to destroy everything you love and kill you.

How would Entropy take down a plane and kill all passengers? How about it freezes the AOA sensor in the "nose is at +90 degrees pitch" position? How do we defend against that attack vector? Pilot training? Oops! Entropy also made them forget that page out of thousands of possible pages of procedural training during the critical seconds they needed to remember it. The only way to fight Entropy is by making random events more independent, rather than causally linked in a failure cascade.

I don't think this course towards blaming Boeing's lack of documentation and/or pilot training is helpful. I don't think there's any option for Boeing but to immediately recall and retrofit all aircraft to the multiple AOA-sensor option, at their expense, and refund every airline that actually paid extra for it.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#244

Is it possible for Boeing engineers to lose their professional status as a result of this situation?

The fault doesn't lie with the engineers who built the system...not to mention I would be very surprised if they were professionally certified. It lies with the managers who wrote the specification that said that for business reasons the new plane must not require any additional training or type certifications, and cut costs by implementing the required systems with a non-redundant sensor.

My understanding (from other recent articles and discussions like this one) is that Boeing is self-certifying (thanks FAA!), and because of this, they have at least one engineer, probably a few, who are on staff and who do their certification and are professionally certified themselves to do this. These engineers would therefore be personally liable for this plane's problems, because they signed off on it.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones at fault at the people at the FAA who let Boeing certify their own planes.

Everyone involved can share the fault. Unfortunately, correctly apportioning all of the blame won’t bring back the souls lost.

No, but the whole point in assigning blame and severely punishing people found to be at-fault is to prevent things from happening again.

If we just let these people off scot-free, then you can count on more similar things happening.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#246
post #43

From my point-of-view, two opinion points: 1. I am glad that 737 MAX has been grounded. May it stay that way, globally, until this issue is provably resolved. 2. The entire Boeing chain of management that resulted in these crashes should be publicly flogged, their remuneration & benefits clawed back & subject to a mandatory minimum prison sentence. Who the hell am I kidding! Neither is very likely to happen in the pr…

>1. I am glad that 737 MAX has been grounded. May it stay that way, globally, until this issue is provably resolved.

No, it should stay grounded permanently. Who wants to risk their lives in one of these things now, with the reputation that Boeing has now earned? The airlines should be able to return these things to Boeing and get their money back. If that means Boeing goes under, then so be it.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#247
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if your #2 is applied to doctors, car/ship manufacturers, food producers, grocery stores, house builders, taxis, restaurants, software engineers, medical device producers and so on? Every profession caused accidental deaths. "Legal action" against bad decisions is a must. However, mandatory prison sentence for accidents is a terrible idea.

Especially in light of the current size of the US's prison population. We should be very careful in general about advocating for more prison sentences. It's an easy thing to do, but the societal outcome is a lot more complicated.

Oh please. If there's one demographic we don't have much of in our prison system, it's upper-class corporate executives. We could stand to let some non-violent drug offenders out early to make room for them.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#248
post #241

The fact that "AoA disagree" light and logic was an optional feature seems criminal enough to me. A sensor with no failover unless you pay for an option. Who the hell thought this was a good idea or approved it? WTF! 500 people are already dead. Boeing should be brought to the coals. It probably takes longer to go through the checklist than it does for everyone to die. I promise if the audio recordings are ever relea…

Hopefully whatever engineer signed his name to this goes to prison, and gets personally sued by the families of the victims.

Engineers don't make decisions like this. Not providing documentation of the feature or providing training to pilots was the problem, and it's caused by multiple management failures. The lack of sensor redundancy likely also is due to management.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#249
post #241

The fact that "AoA disagree" light and logic was an optional feature seems criminal enough to me. A sensor with no failover unless you pay for an option. Who the hell thought this was a good idea or approved it? WTF! 500 people are already dead. Boeing should be brought to the coals. It probably takes longer to go through the checklist than it does for everyone to die. I promise if the audio recordings are ever relea…

Hopefully whatever engineer signed his name to this goes to prison, and gets personally sued by the families of the victims.

You seriously think an engineer didn't raise this concern? This reeks of high management telling engineers to know their place.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood. Had the pilots been trained, they could have dealt with it -- that the off-duty pilot was able to shows it was possible to respond correctly, while that the others weren't shows the lack of training is a real problem.

Thanks, I see. I don't think it does much good to notice that a small percentage of pilots can be capable of figuring it out, if they have no other duties at the time. That doesn't tell us that it's reasonable to expect pilots in command under stress to always figure it out. And they have to figure it out 100% of the time to avoid statistically unacceptable crashes. So I don't agree that pilot training is an acceptab…

Yes it does: it shows that there is a procedure that would have worked had the pilots recognized the issue and known about the procedure.

The pilots were stressed in part because they didn't know -- they had plenty of time to recognize the issue and take action had they known, but they didn't, so no amount of time would have helped them. We don't know if one more thing to know about would too much, but I rather doubt that.

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