Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#41

Post by throwawaymath » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:11 AM UTC

tensor wrote: post #18

Simulacra wrote: post #3

The key problem I think, with higher education, is that we force students to take classes in the name of liberal education. If no one is required to take a class, then students might not take that class, which leads to that professor's usefulness, and perhaps career, coming into question. If anything universities are increasing not only the number of classes a student has to take, but also increasing seemingly-pointl…

A professor's usefulness is their research. Teaching is an added benefit for the public. Universities are not trade schools.

That's the platonic ideal of a professor's utility, yes. In practice it's more of a mixed bag. Once you leave the top ~100 colleges the scales stop being tipped towards research nearly as much.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#42

Post by dbcurtis » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:11 AM UTC

nostrebored wrote: post #17

logicx24 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the world really needs more escalator mechanics, then salaries for them will rise commensurate to demand and people will train to become escalator mechanics. Until then, they'll continue with other pursuits that are more profitable to them. This is how things have always been, unless you want to reinstitute medieval guilds, and I don't see a problem with it. Generally, campaigning to make people to do something ou…

That assumes perfect knowledge. How many of you have ever stopped to check what an escalator mechanic makes?

I know several elevator mechanics. It pays well, very well. Also is a very dangerous job.

Its a special kind of personality. You need to be mechanically handy, and have some electronics and software sense as well. I suspect if more people were aware of what it paid, they would go for it, if they were willing to put up with hazards.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#43

Post by dbcurtis » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:13 AM UTC

baroffoos wrote: post #36

dbcurtis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you get a license, it will pay about $125/hour. Four year apprenticeship first, though. There is a general shortage of elevator mechanics, so go for it.

And how many hours of the day can I actually do that. $125/hour sounds real nice until you factor in the fact that most of these jobs have very inconsistent workloads so you could spend 5 hours working one day and then have no work next week or have to spend a day fixing a mistake for free.

Currently in Northern California there is more overtime available for elevator mechanics than people available to work that many hours legally.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#44

Post by i_s » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:14 AM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #30

i_s wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kaplan can talk until he's blue in the face, but why aren't people going into the trades right now if it's such a good idea? If it's explained by the market value of a college degree, what's he going to do about that? Because the government is subsidizing education. His suggestion is simple: cut/lower the subsidies.

Okay, just make life harder for everybody. Nice. How does subsidizing education, thus creating more college graduates, increase the value of a degree? There must be some sort of monstrous arbitrage going on, where young people have figured out a scheme for boosting their market value, and employers are utterly clueless about it. My own suggestions would be to provide better protections for blue collar workers, such a…

> Okay, just make life harder for everybody. Nice.

If you spend less on one thing, you can spend more on other things (or tax less), so I don't see how that follows.

> How does subsidizing education, thus creating more college graduates, increase the value of a degree?

I would think about it like this instead: subsidizing education lowers the cost, making it more attractive than it otherwise would be compared to the alternatives (e.g., trade school).

For example, if the government decided to subsidize Ford car purchases, more people would buy Ford, right? Doesn't mean Ford cars became any better.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#45

Post by asaph » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:14 AM UTC

dbcurtis wrote: post #31

baroffoos wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay me enough and I will learn how to replace an escalator.

Once you get a license, it will pay about $125/hour. Four year apprenticeship first, though. There is a general shortage of elevator mechanics, so go for it.

I'll admit I don't know the first thing about escalator repair but I'm confident that a 4 year apprenticeship is absurd. Perhaps that's the real problem. The rules should be amended such that you can get an escalator repair license in 60 days. Problem solved.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#46

Post by dbcurtis » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:15 AM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #40

dbcurtis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you get a license, it will pay about $125/hour. Four year apprenticeship first, though. There is a general shortage of elevator mechanics, so go for it.

> Once you get a license, it will pay about $125/hour. Billed $125/hr while actively working on a particular job, or a sure $125/hr for 2000 hours a year? The amount you bill pays for your downtime, too.

So $125/hr is what the tech takes home from the elevator service company. The company is paying for insurance and general overhead, and billing the tech out at around $500/hour. The real money is in starting an independent elevator service company after getting some experience with somebody like KONE or Otis or Schindler.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#47

Post by bennesvig » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:15 AM UTC

> If schools aim to boost students’ future income by teaching job skills, why do they entrust students’ education to people so detached from the real world?

Because the aim of school is to teach compliance, to sit quietly for 8 hours a day and do what you're told. I don't think it has ever been about learning truly practical skills. I don't even remember taking basic finance classes in high school.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#48

Post by pessimizer » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:16 AM UTC

logicx24 wrote: post #14

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

If the world really needs more escalator mechanics, then salaries for them will rise commensurate to demand and people will train to become escalator mechanics. Until then, they'll continue with other pursuits that are more profitable to them. This is how things have always been, unless you want to reinstitute medieval guilds, and I don't see a problem with it. Generally, campaigning to make people to do something ou…

What a beautiful, efficient world. Sadly, what one can do instead is not budget enough for escalator mechanics, complain that the escalator mechanic union is unreasonable or that there is a skills shortage, then let the escalators break down.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#49

Post by pessimizer » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:17 AM UTC

dbcurtis wrote: post #46

pessimizer wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once you get a license, it will pay about $125/hour. Billed $125/hr while actively working on a particular job, or a sure $125/hr for 2000 hours a year? The amount you bill pays for your downtime, too.

So $125/hr is what the tech takes home from the elevator service company. The company is paying for insurance and general overhead, and billing the tech out at around $500/hour. The real money is in starting an independent elevator service company after getting some experience with somebody like KONE or Otis or Schindler.

$125/hr billed or $125/hr employed?

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#50

Post by Delfino » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 4:18 AM UTC

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

I agree with some of what you said but as an educator, the statement "Not everyone is cut out for college." doesn't sit well with me. Outside of some severe disabilities, I don't think there's anything inherent about who can and can't eventually succeed in college. Some people aren't adequately prepared for college by the time they turn 18 and that's a societal failure. Everyone should have the opportunity to go to and succeed in college but I agree that that shouldn't be the path everyone chooses. But proper incentives must be in place for that to be the case. As it stands, would you (rhetorical "you" I don't know if you personally have kids or how you would answer this questions) push your own children toward trades over university currently? Why or why not?