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Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

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Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#141

Post by spricket »

The fact that "AoA disagree" light and logic was an optional feature seems criminal enough to me. A sensor with no failover unless you pay for an option. Who the hell thought this was a good idea or approved it? WTF!

500 people are already dead. Boeing should be brought to the coals. It probably takes longer to go through the checklist than it does for everyone to die.

I promise if the audio recordings are ever released from CVR they will be absolutely damning. Pilots trying to make it through a loss of control checklist as they dive to their doom. A lot of those checklists have 50+ steps. Imagine trying to make it through that while fighting the plane and descending at over 3x "maximum design descent rate".

I'm sure the fucking alarms we're blaring and pilots cursing the system carrying them toward certain death.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#142

Post by blackflame7000 »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #95
kayfox wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, how are they not?

So, how are they not? When you hit the trim buttons on the yoke MCAS stops for five seconds. What Boeing considers runaway trim would not stop when you counter with the trim buttons.

Yea the interval is actually 20 seconds which is a really long time to a pilot thinking he is in an emergency. If you look at the period of the ups and downs of the Ethiopian flight they roughly correspond to that 20-second interval. Just when he thinks he's fixed it, it strikes again and again, taking a more aggressive nose down attitude each time.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#143

Post by hencq »

arcticbull wrote: post #126
zaphirplane wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very important, as it shows the ratio of pilots aware of the mitigation is low, and/or the stress of fighting with the the computer makes you forget you training amendments Edited to add it’s a training amendment

It's a single data point / anecdote. These investigations are incredibly thorough, precise, and authoritative so it makes sense they'd seek to exclude that kind of information until they knew for sure.

I'm not sure that thorough and precise implies they would seek to leave out things. In fact, one would expect the opposite.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#144

Post by cameldrv »

js2 wrote: post #125
Someone1234 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Runaway stabilizer feels nothing like MCAS. They likely didn't associate the training they received with the problem at hand.

Can you explain how they are different? Both cause the stabilizer to tilt. Both cause the stabilizer wheels next to the pilot/co-pilot to turn. If the plane is pitching down, and you pull back the yoke and that still doesn't recover, don't you at some point check the stabilizer angle? If it's wrong, you use the stabilizer trim switch on the yoke under your thumb to correct it. Won't you see the stabilizer wheel turn…

My guess would be perspective, two kinds.

First he’s gonna be behind the throttle quadrant. The stabilizer wheels are roughly in the center of his vision, so he will notice them moving and when they start and stop. The pilots have them down near their thighs, so they’re not even necessarily in their peripheral vision. They will be less likely to notice every time they start and stop.

Second the jumpseat guy has no flight responsibilities. He can focus on thinking about what’s wrong without dealing with all of the other stuff you’re doing on departure. Radio calls, navigation, performance monitoring, configuration changes or being agitated by the stick shaker.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#145

Post by petee »

gok wrote: post #83

> That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation. > The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously…

> So the NTSC explicitly chose to exclude this [...]

Jeez, what a PAL...

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#146

Post by nine_k »

veryworried wrote: post #110
shiven wrote: post #43

From my point-of-view, two opinion points: 1. I am glad that 737 MAX has been grounded. May it stay that way, globally, until this issue is provably resolved. 2. The entire Boeing chain of management that resulted in these crashes should be publicly flogged, their remuneration & benefits clawed back & subject to a mandatory minimum prison sentence. Who the hell am I kidding! Neither is very likely to happen in the pr…

One thing that bothers me about this generation is this thirst for infinite punishment. People hunger for someone to blame, rattling off a long list of maladies that should befall that person, until they have been thoroughly satisfied, but they are never satisfied. They always feel there should be someone else, something more, something deserved . The truth is, there is no point to such a punishment here. It is unlik…

While I agree that thirst for punishment is counter-productive, I'm not sure that people did their best, or rather that the criteria of the "best" were right.

I remember that the aircraft in question was tweaked beyond stability in order to reuse the existing type certificate. This procedure need scrutiny, likely both on Boeing's and FAA sides.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#147

Post by Crosseye_Jack »

petee wrote: post #145
gok wrote: post #83

> That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation. > The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously…

> So the NTSC explicitly chose to exclude this [...] Jeez, what a PAL...

That pun just hertz.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#148

Post by tntn »

spricket wrote: post #141

The fact that "AoA disagree" light and logic was an optional feature seems criminal enough to me. A sensor with no failover unless you pay for an option. Who the hell thought this was a good idea or approved it? WTF! 500 people are already dead. Boeing should be brought to the coals. It probably takes longer to go through the checklist than it does for everyone to die. I promise if the audio recordings are ever relea…

The checklist in question has three steps. Step two is "move stab trim to cutout," which disables automatic systems that adjust the stabilizer. The pilots in lion air had ~10 minutes to do this.

It is extremely unlikely that the pilots were trying to work through the checklist. More likely they simply did not know what to do.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#150

Post by cameldrv »

WalterBright wrote: post #93
flashman wrote: post #23

So a single point of failure (malfunctioning sensor) can engage the horizontal stabilizer without notifying pilots, in a way that the control yoke can't override. What the hell did Boeing think was going to happen?

The trim switches on the control column can override it.

They will override it for 10 seconds, then MCAS gets back up like a zombie and tries to kill you again. If you want it dead you need to flip two cutout switches behind the throttle quadrant.
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