Live data from Hacker News

Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

theatlantic.com

21–30 of 276 posts

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#21
Bryan Caplan is an authoritarian piece of garbage.

The purpose of education is not to boost the incomes of students, but to expand human knowledge and spread enlightenment; to combat ignorance. It was employers who decided to base hiring decision on the basis of degrees. It is employers who can still change their requirements. We must protect education and fight for an enlightened, fair, nonviolent, just society.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#22

I have posted about this on https://windowsontheory.org/2018/05/02/short-non-review-of-c... I am of course biased as a faculty (though I think his policy prescriptions would negatively effect public schools more than private universities such as Harvard), but I think Caplan's analysis is extremely shallow. First, note that if he's right, higher education should be an incredible drag on the economy - we're taking 4 hi…

>>> I know one theory Caplan has is that completing college certifies "conformity" and "tolerance for boredom": is spending 4 years and tens or hundreds or thousands of dollars the only way to test for these properties?

Working any entry level office job from age 18-22 would be a pretty good test. I would not have survived it.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#23

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

Pay me enough and I will learn how to replace an escalator.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#24

Kaplan can talk until he's blue in the face, but why aren't people going into the trades right now if it's such a good idea? If it's explained by the market value of a college degree, what's he going to do about that? There are some negatives to working in the trades. For one thing, manual labor takes a toll on your body. I've watched tradesmen work at my house and at my workplace. If they're my age, they're broken a…

> Kaplan can talk until he's blue in the face, but why aren't people going into the trades right now if it's such a good idea? If it's explained by the market value of a college degree, what's he going to do about that?

Because the government is subsidizing education. His suggestion is simple: cut/lower the subsidies.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the world really needs more escalator mechanics, then salaries for them will rise commensurate to demand and people will train to become escalator mechanics. Until then, they'll continue with other pursuits that are more profitable to them. This is how things have always been, unless you want to reinstitute medieval guilds, and I don't see a problem with it. Generally, campaigning to make people to do something ou…

You are assuming that the world is well ordered and that all things will balance like that, but it isn't. People don't see those jobs as options, they aren't even aware of the opportunities, and there is social stigma against being in the trades. Even if you make a nice living in the trades, you will take a hit to your social identity, making you less attractive to others. That's how toxic our culture is right now. P…

> And we are going to collapse because of it.

It's not that bad.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#26
post #5

The key problem I think, with higher education, is that we force students to take classes in the name of liberal education. If no one is required to take a class, then students might not take that class, which leads to that professor's usefulness, and perhaps career, coming into question. If anything universities are increasing not only the number of classes a student has to take, but also increasing seemingly-pointl…

That's a side effect of Caplan's main objection, that a college degree has become a credential, used for signaling, and not indicating any real merit or learning. Once students recognize that (and they have), they put in the bare minimum to get the credential, and administrators respond by forcing new minimums. It's still possible to get a good education if you choose your institution, classes and professors wisely,…

An important thing to note is that in many areas colleges may not be the best way to learn a subject. I personally am ok learning from old blog posts and online documentation for most everything computer related and personally even slightly prefer it to college classes. However, as you mentioned I need a credential so sit through classes to get it and do near the minimum to get a good GPA and pass all the classes. There is simply no need to take challenging classes which may not teach exactly what I am interested in and take the risk of wasting upwards of 1,000 dollars on the class and getting my credential permanently stained with a bad grade if I misjudge the difficulty and fail. It is simply less risky, far less stressful, and typically easier for me to learn by not challenging myself at college wherever possible. Especially with education as cheap (many cases free) and accessible as it is online I find it hard to view anyone not slacking and attempting to learn much at college to be a fool.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the world really needs more escalator mechanics, then salaries for them will rise commensurate to demand and people will train to become escalator mechanics. Until then, they'll continue with other pursuits that are more profitable to them. This is how things have always been, unless you want to reinstitute medieval guilds, and I don't see a problem with it. Generally, campaigning to make people to do something ou…

You are assuming that the world is well ordered and that all things will balance like that, but it isn't. People don't see those jobs as options, they aren't even aware of the opportunities, and there is social stigma against being in the trades. Even if you make a nice living in the trades, you will take a hit to your social identity, making you less attractive to others. That's how toxic our culture is right now. P…

I assure you that if the job is paying enough people will drop any social stigma against trades jobs right away. I'll pick a paid off nice house over showing off to my friends. Although I'm sure the new house is much easier to show off than an office job.

I have talked to people working hard physical labor jobs and they make hardly more than I do as a junior/mid level web dev but they are doing back breaking work 6 days a week.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#28

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

Maybe treating them as a dumping ground for people who aren't "cut out for college" is part of the problem.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#29

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

If the world really needs more escalator mechanics, then salaries for them will rise commensurate to demand and people will train to become escalator mechanics. Until then, they'll continue with other pursuits that are more profitable to them. This is how things have always been, unless you want to reinstitute medieval guilds, and I don't see a problem with it. Generally, campaigning to make people to do something ou…

This is such a shockingly naive worldview, but I see it almost every day.

Solving needs and reaping rewards have become disconnected - this is the exact problem we're discussing here.

In fact, solutions and rewards have become opposites in some cases, so it is more profitable to create problems than to solve them. This has become a significant portion of the economy across many sectors, but especially in advertising.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#30
post #24

Kaplan can talk until he's blue in the face, but why aren't people going into the trades right now if it's such a good idea? If it's explained by the market value of a college degree, what's he going to do about that? There are some negatives to working in the trades. For one thing, manual labor takes a toll on your body. I've watched tradesmen work at my house and at my workplace. If they're my age, they're broken a…

> Kaplan can talk until he's blue in the face, but why aren't people going into the trades right now if it's such a good idea? If it's explained by the market value of a college degree, what's he going to do about that? Because the government is subsidizing education. His suggestion is simple: cut/lower the subsidies.

Okay, just make life harder for everybody. Nice.

How does subsidizing education, thus creating more college graduates, increase the value of a degree?

There must be some sort of monstrous arbitrage going on, where young people have figured out a scheme for boosting their market value, and employers are utterly clueless about it.

My own suggestions would be to provide better protections for blue collar workers, such as better enforcement of workplace safety laws, stronger unions, health care, pensions, and a generally stronger safety net.

Post reply on HN