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Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

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Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#611

Post by mikekchar »

megy wrote: post #477
conanbatt wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should be used to create fair workplaces. You can't get good results through bad means. Unions are fundamentally a destructive endeavor. Their use is practical but limited: the best thing unions ever fought was the state, not employers.

> You can't get good results through bad means. Like a 5 day work week from 6 days? Like 8 hour work days? Like safe conditions for workers. All things unions helped deliver.

You may find this link interesting: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ford-factory-wor...

Here's another link that I think has balanced coverage: https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/sep...

Ford even wrote an article on the subject (which I can't seem to find at the moment). In it he discusses hiring private detectives to follow his workers to ensure that they spent the extra money he was paying him. He was worried that by paying his workers too much and giving them too much time off, he'd create another class of wealthy people. Instead his great experiment was to get them to spend their money, drive the economy and create a market for his cars.

So while I don't consider Ford to be a philanthropist for his moves, and while I recognise the achievements of unions in this area, it would be foolish to ignore the fact that 40 hour work weeks, minimum wage and safe working conditions have always been a win-win situation for industry. There have been companies who realised this win-win much earlier than they were forced to. I think one might even be able to argue effectively that these moves may have occurred even without the participation of the unions. Indeed, it is possible that despite all the good work from the unions, that laws of this nature were only passed because this was rapidly becoming the concensus opinion in industry anyway.

Just an aside while I'm here... I once was asked to sign a new contract with my employer with really draconian terms. I was already under contract and none of the termination clauses had come into effect, so I politely declined. They threatened to fire me at which point I asked them if understood the legal consequences of getting people to sign contracts under duress. Their lawyer, who was present, promptly apologised and wrapped things up.

As I was leaving, I mentioned that it would be a good idea to have an ombudsman to review these kinds of contract changes. I was now going to go talk with the rest of my colleagues and there was no way that anyone would sign the new contract from that point on. However, if they had an intermediary, there was a good chance that whatever problem they were having with the old contract could be solved. The HR person replied, "We'll never allow a union here and don't even think about threatening it". The lawyer laughed nervously (I really didn't envy him that day).

And this is the thing that drives me crazy about both sides of the equation. It really is a win-win situation. There is no need to have a "both sides". The company wants a good contract that protects them from crappy stuff. The employee wants a good contract that protects them from crappy stuff. But as soon as one side or the other gets the upper hand, they just try to crush the other side. It's really frustrating. Even the mentioning the idea of working together seems to be crazy talk. While I only mention this anecdote, I am one of the few people who have worked in a union shop as a programmer before. Exactly same thing, other way around. The union would happily drive the company into the ground if it meant getting some pointless concession for its members....

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#612

Post by jniedrauer »

tdhoot wrote: post #601
thelasthuman wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can go above and beyond during designated work hours. To allow work outside of these hours is a race to the bottom in a rat race to see who can no-life it the hardest for the least money. If you can't make yourself stand out with the same amount of hours as your coworkers, then maybe you should come to terms with the fact that you just aren't exceptional.

> If you can't make yourself stand out with the same amount of hours as your coworkers, then maybe you should come to terms with the fact that you just aren't exceptional. Or perhaps different people prioritize different things and who are you to judge or say otherwise?

This is a tragedy of the commons type situation. When your workaholism infringes on the lives of your coworkers, then your coworkers do have a right to say something.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#613

Post by flukus »

ericd wrote: post #369
max76 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (thanks to unions) Is there additional information about how unions lower the quality of public education inside the United States?

Look up rubber rooming in NY schools. Basically, they can't fire teachers with tenure (which they get relatively quickly compared to eg college professor tenure) for even gross misconduct, so they end up paying them to sit in a room doing nothing. If there isn't enough budget, they have to lay off newer teachers, even if they're doing well.

I looked it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers

> Although teachers are now being charged more quickly, it still takes several years to complete the hearing process and for the arbitrator to render a decision.

So they get stood down until they've had a misconduct hearing, that seems fair, we don't want to ruin careers on allegations alone.

> In June 2012 it was revealed that the New York State Education Department had not paid its arbitrators for several years, and collectively owed them millions of dollars for cases they had completed, or were in the process of hearing. In frustration, ten of the 24 arbitrators on the New York City panel have quit, while the remaining 14 refuse to hear any testimony or issue any decisions until their back wages have been paid in full.

This is a massive administrative failure, I don't know why your blaming unions.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#614

Post by conanbatt »

falcor84 wrote: post #552
conanbatt wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you pay workers above what they are willing to work for you?

To be able to hire them for a particular unit of work and then let them go once the project is over, without having to worry about labor laws. This kind of flexibility and optionality can be very valuable.

And expensive.

Firm theory has studied this subject in the field of economics. There's a reason there are employees in the world, and not everyone is a contractor.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#615

Post by conanbatt »

kennywinker wrote: post #600
conanbatt wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Higher worker productivity achieved those things, not unions. Those gains so-called 'worker rights' were achieved in countries without unions as well. It's also unmentioned how much unemployment and misery unions also caused in this narrative.

No - higher productivity made it _possible_ but unionized workers fought and died to make it actually happen.

Who told you that; unions?

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#616

Post by erklik »

bluntfang wrote: post #489
tomohawk wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in. You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work. You've now c…

Some of my peers have thrown around the idea of team hires. Interviewing as a team and working as a team. The team is hired and quits together and is generally a collective that works within itself.

Isn't that now essentially a company that work gets subcontracted out to? or am i missing the joke?

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#617

Post by conanbatt »

kennywinker wrote: post #602
syshum wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is largely revisionist history, most of those things where already happening naturally due to competition between employers. Unions may have accelerated it a few years but the idea that we as a society would have never gotten a 5 day work week or an 8 hour day with out the unions is just false

There is fierce competition for employees in tech, but the hours seem to be normalized at 50+...

Few jobs show so much flexibility as tech. People work as they please, including shortened hours.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#618

Post by ericd »

flukus wrote: post #613
ericd wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up rubber rooming in NY schools. Basically, they can't fire teachers with tenure (which they get relatively quickly compared to eg college professor tenure) for even gross misconduct, so they end up paying them to sit in a room doing nothing. If there isn't enough budget, they have to lay off newer teachers, even if they're doing well.

I looked it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers > Although teachers are now being charged more quickly, it still takes several years to complete the hearing process and for the arbitrator to render a decision. So they get stood down until they've had a misconduct hearing, that seems fair, we don't want to ruin careers on allegations alone. > In June 2012 it was revealed that the New York State Educ…

I'm not blaming them for the number of people in those rubber rooms or for the terrible administration of that school district. I am blaming them for how hard it is to fire a teacher the administration doesn't want, for whatever reason, to the point where new, exceptional teachers are being let go because they have to keep around older teachers with tenure who are phoning it in. That drags down the average quality of teaching in the US.

That said, I also think that good teachers should be paid much more to attract more talent, and make it a viable alternative to more careers for people who aren't willing to sacrifice their finances to teach.

EDIT: I should also note that NYC public schools are an incredibly challenging teaching environment, a lot of false accusations fly around, and I don't mean that all the teachers in the rubber rooms should be let go. I just disagree that teaching should be a tenured position.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#619

Post by subway »

drb91 wrote: post #563
edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

To be fair, working less is exactly in the interest of the employee. It's much better than the scenario of "40 hours a week on paper but in reality it's whatever the employer needs" that is prevalent in the US.

Plenty of unethical behaviors can be sold as being in the best interest of the actor.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#620

Post by tzs »

mises wrote: post #64
chrisseaton wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how unions work in the US, but most unions in the UK fund a single political party, which means you could be forced to pay to support a party with views you find abhorrent in order to work, so I hope not.

Completely correct. Three of the top 10 election cycle 2018 contributors were unions. * Carpenters & Joiners Union gave $38,366,262 with $37,822,215 to democrats and $529,000 to republicans. * Service Employees International Union gave $28,224,658 with $28,219,509 to democrats and $132 to republicans. * Laborers Union gave $27,538,080 with $26,810,870 to democrats and $708,100 to republicans. Source: https://www.open…

Speaking of Carpenters & Joiners, the article makes this claim:

> If recognized, Kickstarter would be the first major tech company with union representation in the United States.

But that's not correct. Engineers at Hughes Aircraft, including programmers, were unionized and represented by Local 1553 of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners. I think Hughes counts as a major tech company. Local 1553 also represents electronics and space engineers at other aerospace companies.

How did a carpenter's union end up representing engineers whose work had nothing to do with wood? Briefly, in the 1940s when Hughes built the Spruce Goose, a huge plane built almost entirely out of wood, they hired a lot of union carpenters. After the Spruce Goose was cancelled, many of those carpenters stayed on doing other work at Hughes, and kept their union. More history of 1553 here [1].

[1] http://www.east1553.com/history.htm

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