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Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

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Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#511

Post by crumpets »

megy wrote: post #475
edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

> They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. Work less? Or work 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week? There are plenty of examples out there of people who think that is the bare minimum. > They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. Of course, that is what a strike is, but a necessary evil.

>Work less? Or work 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week? There are plenty of examples out there of people who think that is the bare minimum.

Work less. There is no point in trying to put out anymore output than the bare minimum required if that's both the agreement between the union and the employee (promotions based on tenure) and between the union and the company (agreements on what minimum deliverables employees will deliver).

>Of course, that is what a strike is, but a necessary evil.

It's more than a strike. Continuing what I wrote above, unions will introduce obvious inefficiencies in order to support red tape processes rather than focusing on what the company is trying to accomplish. (e.g. no code can be committed without a review by two other clocked in union members while being backed by a ticket groomed by a clocked in agilist and released by two clocked-in SRE folks).

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#512

Post by conanbatt »

megy wrote: post #477
conanbatt wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should be used to create fair workplaces. You can't get good results through bad means. Unions are fundamentally a destructive endeavor. Their use is practical but limited: the best thing unions ever fought was the state, not employers.

> You can't get good results through bad means. Like a 5 day work week from 6 days? Like 8 hour work days? Like safe conditions for workers. All things unions helped deliver.

Higher worker productivity achieved those things, not unions.

Those gains so-called 'worker rights' were achieved in countries without unions as well. It's also unmentioned how much unemployment and misery unions also caused in this narrative.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#513

Post by hellllllllooo »

Frondo wrote: post #504
hellllllllooo wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. It's very hard to organize places where people are not being treated poorly. It's risky to unionize as people can loose their jobs in the process if the bosses find out before they have union protections so people will only take the chance if the conditions are bad. Unions don't try to organize happy work places because they know how hard it is to do even when people are treated poorly. It's not worth the effo…

Just a note: it's illegal to fire someone for trying to organize a union. Not that it doesn't happen, but you often hear about how those people get their jobs reinstated, etc.

It happens, especially to at-will employees. Once you're seen as a organizer/instigator other reasons can be found to remove you if necessary. Even if that employee is reinstated it takes time and the message has been sent to others that organizing could cost you your job.

The point is that forming a union is a bumpy ride, even when the majority of employees see a need. Management will work hard to stop it and employees have to do a lot of work to make it happen. Unions won't organize at places where people are generally happy because the chances of success are low.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#514

Post by crumpets »

megy wrote: post #477
conanbatt wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should be used to create fair workplaces. You can't get good results through bad means. Unions are fundamentally a destructive endeavor. Their use is practical but limited: the best thing unions ever fought was the state, not employers.

> You can't get good results through bad means. Like a 5 day work week from 6 days? Like 8 hour work days? Like safe conditions for workers. All things unions helped deliver.

Legislators delivered it. It's not clear unions were a required interim for that to happen.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#515

Post by syshum »

megy wrote: post #477
conanbatt wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should be used to create fair workplaces. You can't get good results through bad means. Unions are fundamentally a destructive endeavor. Their use is practical but limited: the best thing unions ever fought was the state, not employers.

> You can't get good results through bad means. Like a 5 day work week from 6 days? Like 8 hour work days? Like safe conditions for workers. All things unions helped deliver.

That is largely revisionist history, most of those things where already happening naturally due to competition between employers. Unions may have accelerated it a few years but the idea that we as a society would have never gotten a 5 day work week or an 8 hour day with out the unions is just false

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#516

Post by pessimizer »

Trufa wrote: post #468
erobbins wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? Companies have seminars for upper management on how to squeeze workers harder and try to retaliate against complainers. Seems fair to do the opposite.

Two wrongs don't make fair.

If you think that trying to make more money for less work, or to get more service for less cost, is wrong, then you think capitalism is wrong.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#518

Post by scarmig »

nerder92 wrote: post #509

As a EU citizen, it always surprise me how the popular retoric about unions is to associate it with lazyness. I think is just undermining of what union actually really are. I personally found this as a first step toward a perception shift about tech from which we can all benefit. Unions for instance can help fight this constant non extra paid "after-hours" working culture that force you to do all-nighters and all thi…

Europeans and union members are so lazy, with their 40 hour work weeks and paid time off and extra compensation for being on-call.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#519

Post by [deleted] »

TheLuddite wrote: post #486
tomohawk wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in. You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work. You've now c…

Wasn't this the way the Guilds were operating in the Medieval era?

[deleted]

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#520

Post by mmmmmmmmm »

untog wrote: post #73
msghacq wrote: post #45

It will be interesting to see what this does for developer salaries at Kickstarter. If, as a top performer, I get penalized by joining the union then obviously Kickstarter looks less attractive to me. For unions in our industry to work they are going to have to be very explicit about how they are going to raise developer salaries.

Salaries aren't the only thing unions are good for. I'd be very interested in a job that had cast-iron guarantees about working hours, on-duty overtime, no open offices, stuff like that.

Are employees really going to strike to get out of an open plan office, though?

I hate my open plan office but I would never give up even a week's salary to protest it.

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