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Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

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Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#91

Post by Someone1234 »

gok wrote: post #83

> That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation. > The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously…

It didn't need to be included in the preliminary report since it is contextual/background information.

They did include in the report that on a previous flight the same sensor error occurred and the pilots resolved it by disabling auto-trim. The fact there was a third pilot there is definitely interesting, but they didn't make anyone less safe by not including it in the report.

There's no bombshell here. Previous problems were well known/reported before today.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#92

Post by WalterBright »

shiven wrote: post #43

From my point-of-view, two opinion points: 1. I am glad that 737 MAX has been grounded. May it stay that way, globally, until this issue is provably resolved. 2. The entire Boeing chain of management that resulted in these crashes should be publicly flogged, their remuneration & benefits clawed back & subject to a mandatory minimum prison sentence. Who the hell am I kidding! Neither is very likely to happen in the pr…

I'd fly on a 737 MAX tomorrow. But I might ask the crew during boarding if they're familiar with the stab trim cutoff switches.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#93

Post by WalterBright »

flashman wrote: post #23

So a single point of failure (malfunctioning sensor) can engage the horizontal stabilizer without notifying pilots, in a way that the control yoke can't override. What the hell did Boeing think was going to happen?

The trim switches on the control column can override it.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#94

Post by Someone1234 »

sterlind wrote: post #89
segmondy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 3rd pilot was probably able to figure out the issue due to clarity of mind to not having to fly the plane, pay attention to all the instrument gauges while things are going wrong, trying to diagnosis and correct the issue.

Seems like pilots are overburdened by so much automation, as alluded to by the famous "Children of the Magenta" video[0]. I don't get why the plane doesn't just say what it's doing, and why it's doing it, and have a big red button to put the plane into a safe-mode alternate law. 737s already say warnings like "BANK ANGLE", couldn't it just say "DANGEROUS CLIMB DETECTED, TRIMMING NOSE DOWN. PRESS RED BUTTON TO CANCEL.…

Boeing offered that, but it was a paid extra that few airlines purchased.

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines...

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#95

Post by inferiorhuman »

kayfox wrote: post #85
inferiorhuman wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The symptoms of MCAS are the same as runaway trim No, they're not.

So, how are they not?

So, how are they not?

When you hit the trim buttons on the yoke MCAS stops for five seconds. What Boeing considers runaway trim would not stop when you counter with the trim buttons.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#96

Post by inferiorhuman »

kayfox wrote: post #82
inferiorhuman wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every pilot on that plane should have been trained on the new system. How is that supposed to work when Boeing didn't inform any of the airlines of this system?

Its in the type certificate and the maintenance manuals.

Nope. This has been the subject of a ton of teeth gnashing by the American pilot unions (the head of American Airlines' APA union has been among the most vocal critics of Boeing in this case). In fact if you look at the ANAC's (Brazil) version of the "OPERATIONAL EVALUATION REPORT" and compare it to the rest of the world you'll find only the Brazilian version references MCAS.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#97

Post by twblalock »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #73
ruytlm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose similar in terms of the right place a the right time would be the QF32 incident[0], where by chance there were two additional pilots in the cockpit; a check captain, and a supervising check captain who was training that check captain. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32

More to the point, this reflects positively on Lion Air because it means that the pilots in the forward facing seats properly took advice into account. This is good crew resource management. Check out the Asiana crash at SFO for an example of where CRM failed hard. The pilot flying in that case was told by the other two pilots in the cockpit how to avoid the crash and he STILL flew a perfectly serviceable plane into…

> More to the point, this reflects positively on Lion Air because it means that the pilots in the forward facing seats properly took advice into account. This is good crew resource management.

It's good the pilots took advice -- but they should not have needed that advice because they should have been trained to operate the system properly.

The whole thing reflects very poorly overall:

- The pilots were not trained properly on the new system, and a third pilot who happened to be hitching a ride had to tell them how to operate the plane.

- The plane was allowed to fly again the next day despite the malfunction, none of the pilots flying it were properly trained, and everybody died.

- The incident was not reported properly at the time, nor was it reported after the same plane had crashed the next day.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#98

Post by inferiorhuman »

twblalock wrote: post #87
inferiorhuman wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every pilot on that plane should have been trained on the new system. How is that supposed to work when Boeing didn't inform any of the airlines of this system?

Boeing did inform them. Otherwise how would the third pilot have known what to do when he saved the plane?

Boeing did inform them.

Boeing did not inform any of the airlines of MCAS until after the Lion Air crash.

Otherwise how would the third pilot have known what to do when he saved the plane?

The deadheading pilot recognized a problem with something controlling the stabilizer and went off script.

Edit: I love the downvotes from folks who haven't actually read any of the complaints from pilots. Since reading is too hard, have a video from the Washington Post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftZ6j8onS78

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#99

Post by dang »

pimlottc wrote: post #16

The headline is really confusing; I thought I was perhaps reading it wrong, but it's sort of impossible to read correctly until you realize they are talking about a separate incident than the well-known crash. It would have been clearer if they had written something simpler, like "Lion Air 737 Nearly Crashed One Day Before Deadly Accident"

We added "on the" to try to make that clearer above.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#100

Post by rvolkan »

kunkurus wrote: post #86
rvolkan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if your #2 is applied to doctors, car/ship manufacturers, food producers, grocery stores, house builders, taxis, restaurants, software engineers, medical device producers and so on? Every profession caused accidental deaths. "Legal action" against bad decisions is a must. However, mandatory prison sentence for accidents is a terrible idea.

If Boeing knowingly exposed the passengers to the risk of injury it's criminal negligence and usually the punishment is imprisonment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence

Exactly my point. Imprisonment should come into play when the accidents are proven to be caused by Boeing's negligence.
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