Live data from Hacker News

Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

bloomberg.com

71–80 of 269 posts

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#71

It also seems like this was not properly reported to safety agencies at the time, nor was it reported when that plane crashed in a subsequent flight. Say what you will about Boeing, but this could have been avoided if the airline had better safety practices. Every pilot on that plane should have been trained on the new system. And the malfunction, if reported properly, should have caused that particular plane to be g…

Every pilot on that plane should have been trained on the new system.

How is that supposed to work when Boeing didn't inform any of the airlines of this system?

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#72
post #51

So a single point of failure (malfunctioning sensor) can engage the horizontal stabilizer without notifying pilots, in a way that the control yoke can't override. What the hell did Boeing think was going to happen?

The pilots know that the trim is moving, it's connected to a wheel in the cockpit that's super obvious. But the normal way of stopping it (the yoke) doesn't necessarily work, and the pilots wouldn't necessarily think to physically stop the wheel with their hands.

This 3rd pilot was probably able to figure out the issue due to clarity of mind to not having to fly the plane, pay attention to all the instrument gauges while things are going wrong, trying to diagnosis and correct the issue.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#73
post #20
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riding dead head as a pilot is normal. They do it all the time to get back home or wherever their next flight is from. Being in the right place, and happening to know exactly how to deal with what would otherwise kill the pilot and all the passengers, is incredibly fortunate.

I suppose similar in terms of the right place a the right time would be the QF32 incident[0], where by chance there were two additional pilots in the cockpit; a check captain, and a supervising check captain who was training that check captain. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32

More to the point, this reflects positively on Lion Air because it means that the pilots in the forward facing seats properly took advice into account. This is good crew resource management.

Check out the Asiana crash at SFO for an example of where CRM failed hard. The pilot flying in that case was told by the other two pilots in the cockpit how to avoid the crash and he STILL flew a perfectly serviceable plane into the ground in perfect weather on an extremely easy visual approach.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#74
post #22

Runaway trim is supposed to be part of the "memory checklist" for pilots. The symptoms of MCAS are the same as runaway trim and the fix is the same (which is why Boeing didn't feel like extra pilot training was needed), so I'm curious to see the most recent investigation and hear the black box voice recorder. Did they not know they were dealing with runaway trim? Did they think it was something else? Did they forget…

The symptoms of MCAS are the same as runaway trim

No, they're not.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#75
post #43

From my point-of-view, two opinion points: 1. I am glad that 737 MAX has been grounded. May it stay that way, globally, until this issue is provably resolved. 2. The entire Boeing chain of management that resulted in these crashes should be publicly flogged, their remuneration & benefits clawed back & subject to a mandatory minimum prison sentence. Who the hell am I kidding! Neither is very likely to happen in the pr…

What happens if your #2 is applied to doctors, car/ship manufacturers, food producers, grocery stores, house builders, taxis, restaurants, software engineers, medical device producers and so on? Every profession caused accidental deaths.

"Legal action" against bad decisions is a must. However, mandatory prison sentence for accidents is a terrible idea.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#76
post #43

From my point-of-view, two opinion points: 1. I am glad that 737 MAX has been grounded. May it stay that way, globally, until this issue is provably resolved. 2. The entire Boeing chain of management that resulted in these crashes should be publicly flogged, their remuneration & benefits clawed back & subject to a mandatory minimum prison sentence. Who the hell am I kidding! Neither is very likely to happen in the pr…

Even if the US doesn't choose to do much (though I find it embarrassing the FAA was one of the last regulatory bodies to respond), Boeing will face a reckoning globally from other regulatory agencies. Stock is down 15% since March 1. Hard to know what an executives there are thinking, but I hope some folks in the organization genuinely feels some sort of empathy for the families of the deceased on these flights.

> though I find it embarrassing the FAA was one of the last regulatory bodies to respond

The top 3 officials at FAA are unfilled, with seat-warmers there in an "acting" capacity. I wonder if that's related. https://www.faa.gov/about/key_officials/

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#77
post #22

Runaway trim is supposed to be part of the "memory checklist" for pilots. The symptoms of MCAS are the same as runaway trim and the fix is the same (which is why Boeing didn't feel like extra pilot training was needed), so I'm curious to see the most recent investigation and hear the black box voice recorder. Did they not know they were dealing with runaway trim? Did they think it was something else? Did they forget…

> [MCAS] it’s not stopped by the pilot pulling the yoke, which for normal trim from the autopilot or runaway manual trim triggers trim hold sensors This implies that 'normal' runaway trim can be stopped by pulling the control yoke. Maybe pilots simply have no idea what is going on once they realise that action has no effect with the MCAS?

This implies that 'normal' runaway trim can be stopped by pulling the control yoke.

Pulling on the yoke will only stop the 737's computers from moving the stabilizer IF it's the speed trim system (STS) that's moving the stabilizer. Otherwise the yoke is intended to adjust the elevator not the stabilizer

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#78

Is it possible for Boeing engineers to lose their professional status as a result of this situation?

The fault doesn't lie with the engineers who built the system...not to mention I would be very surprised if they were professionally certified. It lies with the managers who wrote the specification that said that for business reasons the new plane must not require any additional training or type certifications, and cut costs by implementing the required systems with a non-redundant sensor.

I think this is one of those situations where you may not be able to assign fault to any one set of people. Remember that everyone here has the clear advantage of knowing what went wrong and how, the people who designed this may not have forseen any such situation. Also one of these systems, even something as "simple" as MCAS would have involved dozens if not hundreds of engineers in all the design decisions that lead to this issue, including many people who have already retired or done so long ago (remember, the 737 was originally designed in the 60's).

The desire to assign fault to one individual and punish them is a very emotional response to this situation, it means people will not accept that it was an unforseen or systemic issue (people familiar with air crashes have seen in the past some systemic issues, where everyone did everything how they were supposed to but things still went south) without some individuals to blame. Typically crash investigations try to ferret out all points of failure, you might read "pilot error" in the news, but rarely is that the only cause in the crash report.

For example, this crash: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_965

It identifies some training issues (automation dependence, speedbrakes still being applied while executing terrain avoidance maneuver) but also identifies issues with the FMS in how it manages waypoints and how they are named.

So, for the current situation there are obviously many aspects to be addressed:

1. MCAS software appears to do more than specified, this is apparently what the software update (delayed by the government shutdown apparently) is to fix.

2. Pilots need to be trained or retained on stabilizer trim runaway.

3. The 3 AoA sensor option might need to be mandatory on the 737 MAX.

4. The FAA may need to review their effective supervision of both Boeing and the air carriers.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#79
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pilots know that the trim is moving, it's connected to a wheel in the cockpit that's super obvious. But the normal way of stopping it (the yoke) doesn't necessarily work, and the pilots wouldn't necessarily think to physically stop the wheel with their hands.

But the normal way of stopping it (the yoke) doesn't necessarily work, and the pilots wouldn't necessarily think to physically stop the wheel with their hands. Well, no. Pulling on the yoke traditionally moves the elevator. MCAS adjusts the horizontal stabilizer. You can adjust the stabilizer with switches on the yoke or with the trim wheels by your knee. MCAS will pause for five seconds if the pilot hits one of the…

I believe you may have misunderstood the comment you were replying to.

They were saying you cannot counteract MCAS's control inputs with the elevator alone. Which is a somewhat unconventional design, in a lot of aircraft the elevator can overpower the horizontal stabilizer, whereas with a bad sensor MCAS will continue to move the stabilizer until you cannot overcome it.

To use a bad analogy, in a car the break is stronger than the accelerator, so if the peddle sticks you can still stop. In other aircraft the elevator is more powerful than the horizontal stabilizer.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#80
post #75
post #43

From my point-of-view, two opinion points: 1. I am glad that 737 MAX has been grounded. May it stay that way, globally, until this issue is provably resolved. 2. The entire Boeing chain of management that resulted in these crashes should be publicly flogged, their remuneration & benefits clawed back & subject to a mandatory minimum prison sentence. Who the hell am I kidding! Neither is very likely to happen in the pr…

What happens if your #2 is applied to doctors, car/ship manufacturers, food producers, grocery stores, house builders, taxis, restaurants, software engineers, medical device producers and so on? Every profession caused accidental deaths. "Legal action" against bad decisions is a must. However, mandatory prison sentence for accidents is a terrible idea.

Especially in light of the current size of the US's prison population. We should be very careful in general about advocating for more prison sentences. It's an easy thing to do, but the societal outcome is a lot more complicated.
Post reply on HN