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Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

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Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#551

Post by barbecue_sauce »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #499
naravara wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about unions do you think magically makes it impossible to fire someone who isn't doing the required work? The only thing that changes is you have to actually do the requisite paperwork and monitoring to validate that you're firing them with cause instead of for arbitrary reasons and pretending it's with cause. The "we can't fire someone who is honestly slacking" is just as much a consequence of bad bookkeeping…

Just a quick question... But do you have any personal experience with the UAW (United Auto Workers Union)? Because while on it's face, I'd agree with your comment... but in experience I've seen things closer to what the other guy was implying.

You think United Auto Workers work on side projects?

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#552

Post by falcor84 »

conanbatt wrote: post #532
tomohawk wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in. You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work. You've now c…

Why would you pay workers above what they are willing to work for you?

To be able to hire them for a particular unit of work and then let them go once the project is over, without having to worry about labor laws. This kind of flexibility and optionality can be very valuable.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#553

Post by baddox »

tomohawk wrote: post #481
ace_of_spades wrote: post #401

To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists? I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well i…

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in. You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work. You've now c…

But I mean, how different is that really from any normal corporation that offers its services to other corporations? The issue is still how the workers protect themselves from you (the employer).

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#555

Post by swiftcoder »

trhway wrote: post #534
ace_of_spades wrote: post #401

To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists? I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well i…

>problems of labor mistreatment i don't think there have been times in tech when employees were paid and overall treated better than today (maybe the boom 20 years ago comes somewhat close). Even more, I think tech employees situation today beats any other mass employment situation in the history of humankind.

This is generally true for full-time engineers. It isn't true for the vast legions of contract workers that stoke the fires of large tech companies.

See, for example https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tn-apple-contract-wor...

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#556

Post by moocowtruck »

my_username_is_ wrote: post #540
bargl wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this means we need to re-think how unions work. It should be used to create fair workplaces. My concern with the anti-union rhetoric in the USA is that we then turn to the government to protect workers. I think it's a lot better to have a union vs government as long as that union isn't protected from competition like they are today. If we can introduce competition into unions then they might better serve the…

I agree strongly. Unions don't have to undermine the productivity of a company (and really they shouldn't). A few things that a modern union could do: 1. Place limits on expected working hours. Let the management know that working above 40 hours a week, or needing to be on-call 24/7 should not be the norm. Let management know that using all your vacation time should be the norm. Set minimum amounts of vacation time f…

I work in an org with an IT union in a small area with little options.. its terrible. There is actual negative to doing work when you can hope some other sucker steps up to the plate, you can't get fired, you make the same cash. Oh the things I've learned.. don't even get me started on grievances etc

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#557

Post by stevespang »

There goes the farm . . . . Kickstarter will now increase it's "cut" or fees taken out of start ups - - - and other start up websites will gain more business.

It's all downhill from here. Years ago S W Bell yellow Page Advertising was faced with unionizing and too high wages.

There reaction was beautiful - - -

The principals hire fancy lawyers and the entire company was sold to a new incorporation with an ever slightly so different name (a sideways "hustle").

The so called "new owners" fired everyone.

Then they ran employment ads nationwide like crazy, anyone who dared to come back was started at like half wages of before.

Problem solved.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#558

Post by moocowtruck »

Aeolun wrote: post #546
crumpets wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Work less? Or work 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week? There are plenty of examples out there of people who think that is the bare minimum. Work less. There is no point in trying to put out anymore output than the bare minimum required if that's both the agreement between the union and the employee (promotions based on tenure) and between the union and the company (agreements on what minimum deliverables employees will…

At this point the union becomes useless, since any competent developer won’t be part of it.

I work in an org with a developer union; I can tell you I was asked to join a few times and every time said no.. it is sooooo incredibly bad i just cant imagine how a union would be good for IT. I have so much to say but don't know where to begin or how to even write it all..

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#559

Post by yibg »

I'm not against unions in general or in principle, but some implementations are not great.

I suspect like some folks here, my personal (negative) interactions with unions have turned me off of unions in general. I worked at an unionized shop when I first graduated and while I recognize some of the positives the union brought, there were also many downsides.

Some examples:

- Nepotism. We had an open position we couldn't fill for over a year because one of the union leader's son was graduating soon and that position was reserved for him.

- General complacency. Raises and promotions for the most part weren't based on performance, but rather tenure. Many people start off ambitious but end up just doing the minimum over time because there is no reward in trying too much.

- Strange (from my perspective) rules. I couldn't have more than one CAD going at one time, and because CAD is backlogged the turn around time was super long. This meant for long stretches of time I couldn't do any work. But I also couldn't leave. I read a lot of wikipedia pages during this time.

Eventually I got super bored, didn't see any growth potential and wasn't learning much so I left.

I assume not all unions are like this, but I do hear things similar to this from others (many on this thread) quite often as well.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#560

Post by pmoriarty »

edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

"They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints."

The US has such a workaholic culture, with lack of sleep and lack of life outside of work being endemic. Less work is a good thing!

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